reality of the catholic church and christianity

Medicine Woman,
I not going to say I know exactly what you've been through, but I know what it's like to feel like God has abandoned you. I used to be close to God and do what I felt He wanted me to do, but then I started struggleing with depression and I was baffeled as to why He alowed this to happen. It's like I try to do what you want me to do and you reward me with this terrible illness where I'm not alive, yet not dead. I thought to myself God would not allow this to happen, so there must be no God, Right? Am I anywhere close to what you think? I don't mean to offend or irritate you, I was just wondering.
Enigma'07

M*W: Thank you for sending me a PM. I am not offended or irritated! My story goes, I was raised agnostically, and I had a yearning to "belong" to something big. I always admired Catholic kids I knew. I married and decided it was time to give my kids religious training, so I converted to Catholicism. It was my life. I lived and breathed and taught catholicism fervently! I only associated with people in the church, and was so active in church, that I was 'scorching the Earth' with my christian beliefs. The turning point was when I lived in Germany and went on several religious pilgrimages -- Lourdes, Fatima, The Vatican, Avignon, Chartres, Notre Dame in Paris, etc. I ate it up! Then I went to Rome and to the Vatican. That was to be the high point of my religious education! But it wasn't. I was in the first audience with Pope John Paul II. I shook his hand. I prayed and prayed in thanksgiving for God allowing me to visit these holy places. But I got a strange feeling inside St. Peter's. I didn't feel 'right.' I got creepy feelings. My skin crawled. I'm a very sensitive person, and I had a sense of something evil! I couldn't explain it. I felt so guilty that when I had thoughts about my feelings, I would quickly get them out of my head! I couldn't explain it, and I was uncomfortable with my thoughts. I came to realize that all these holy places were not what the kingdom of God was about. This process took a long time. It didn't happen over night. I continued going to church 'religiously,' but I started having doubts even about the catholic mass and the rituals. I came to see how evil they were and how the church had brainwashed millions of people. All I can say is I finally realized that Christianity was not about Jesus, and it was not about God or salvation. I realized that the kingdom of God was 'within me' and not 'out there.' The kingdom of God that Jesus (alledgedly) spoke of was within the all of humanity. We are God's greatest creation (thus far) and furthermore, we are still in the last day of creation! We're not finished yet! God has great plans for humanity. It's really too bad that the writers of the NT never knew Jesus or what he actually said. Jesus never wrote anything on his own. I wonder about that because if he was a learned man and a rabbi, he would surely have written his own philosophies down. Therefore, I believe that Paul and the early church fathers created the image of a 'savior' for mind-control purposes, and it worked. Jesus may have never even existed. I tend to think he did, but nothing is true about his crucifixion, resurrection, or ascension. Those stories were all made up by a bunch of liars! These same liars removed so many texts from the compilation of the Bible. They didn't want the whole truth to be known. The early church fathers were only interested in selling a savior to the masses. In truth, there is no need for salvation, because we are already here by the grace of God! This is salvation! Being a member of the human race is salvation! There is no death to the spirit. The spirit inside us is the One Spirit of God, and it never changes. What our spirit does, however, is grow and become more enlightened when we find the truth about our existence. I've been a very lucky person all my life. I've had ups and downs in life, but we all do. But the difference is, I look within. God gave me this life, this body, this soul, and that's where God is. I don't have to go to church to find him. All I have to do is look within and pray within. People tell me I was born under a lucky star, but that's not it. I went looking for myself, and unexpectedly, I found God.

Medicine Woman,
Again, I don't mean to offend or irritate you, I just had some questions. I honestly don't know much about the Catholic church and I have a question. Don't they base alot of stuff on the verse where Jesus says to Peter I will build my church on this rock? I personaly think that the Catholic church has made things to complicated with all of their rituels. Do you agree? I don't know you very well, so perhaps I have no right to say this, but why not consider a differant religion? Not like some strange African or Buddhist (no offence to them but...)religion, but some thing that believes strictly in the Bible. Sorry if I've missed the point but it sounds as though your more upset with the Catholic Church than with God. I'm way off now, aren't I? The thing that's cool about what I've come to believe is that there's not some big list of laws and rituals to follow, it's all about love. I have another story to tell if you would like, or not if I've pissed you off or something.
Enigma'07

M*W: Somewhat. There are different meanings of the word 'Peter' which is 'Petra' in Greek that means 'rock.' There are other meanings as well. 'Petro' refers to the petroleum in the Earth. Also, 'petro' can mean 'energy.' Jesus was enlightened as in 'spirit-filled' and 'energetic.' The NT is really complicated unless one can read ancient Greek. Word meanings change with just about every generation (20 years of so), so after 20 centuries, they don't mean the same thing at all!
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M*W: Yes, the rituals are meaningless when you know the truth. But one must remember that these rituals were started in 325 AD by church fathers who wanted to control the masses. The rituals of the RCC are believed to carry and deliver spiritual growth to its members. When I was a catholic, I took these rituals seriously for my own spiritual growth. Now I understand that these rituals are unnecessary for spiritual growth. Spiritual growth comes from enlightenment, and that is what Jesus tried to teach. If one understands that no one really knows what Jesus actually said, because no one who wrote the NT books even lived during his time, with the exception of Peter and some others, none of the gospel writers knew him. In fact, there are many theories that people like 'Peter' were just code names for other people who may or may not have been Egyptian pharaohs and such. In fact, the whole bible is written in code (not like the book the Bible Code--that was something entirely different which I don't agree with). Like I said, it is of utmost importance that when reading the bible one knows ancient Hebrew and Greek. In fact, Jesus spoke Aramaic, so how could Paul, who wrote in Greek, who never met Jesus, translate what he thought Jesus said, into Greek? It's tremendously contradictory!
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M*W: Please feel free to discuss anything with me. We may not always agree, but I will certainly explain to you anything you want me to. When I learned the truth about Christianity, it wasn't just the RCC that was involved. The RCC bases their faith on the birth, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, the only son of God. That belief is the root of all christianity. So, it wasn't the church itself, it was the faith the church based its religion on.
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M*W: I wasn't exactly "upset with the Catholic Church" as I was with Christianity as a whole. I believe that's not what Jesus lived or taught. I do believe in Jesus, but it was the RCC who turned him into a dying demigod savior in 325 AD. You are right, our spirit "is about love." The fire, the energy, the "petro" of our passion, the light, our spiritual gift of love. Like the Beatles said, "love is all there is."
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M*W: Would you mind communicating on the forum or do you want to keep this private? I'm having some problems with the PM system, and I believe that if we continue to communicate on the forum, I won't have so many people asking me to repeat my story for them. It will also show that I can communicate with Christians without offending them. Sometimes I really do get upset with them, because I feel they really don't listen to me or try to understand me and my message because they are afraid to. But if you prefer to continue with PMs, that's okay, too.

 

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I've heard that the name Peter comes from the Greek petros (pebble) where as when Jesus refered to rock, He used the term petra (bedrock). You think this is true?

Doesn't the RCC believe in faith + works will get you into heaven? Cause if that's true, then it kind of sets catholicism apart from other christian religions, doesn't it?

If you believe that Jesus didn't really say any thing important, or died or anything, then what is his importance?

 

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Greek grammar only allows this term petros for Peter and Jesus, who spoke in Aramaic, would have used the term Cephas that Paul uses to call Peter.

In a matter of speaking, "yes." The Catholic church does not believe that faith without charity automatically makes someone do good works. Protestants also believe "faith and works" will get someone into heaven, but they argue that true faith automatically creates works.

Yes, Martin Luther seems to be the first one to suggest salvation by faith alone.

 

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Jesus Christ and other apostles suggested it.

 

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M*W: That is the question. There is no proof that Jesus said anything. Just because the bible says it's so, doesn't make it so. Jesus didn't write anything himself or anything that is attributed to him. No, I don't believe Jesus was crucified. I believe he was freed by Pontius Pilate. There are some studies done recently that say PP was actually a friend of Jesus' family, and they bought his way out. The reality of it is that Jesus may have been an historical person, but he wasn't the savior anymore than there were some 16 other dying demigod saviors before him. These are the things Christians don't want to hear, but I'm sorry, history wasn't always presented as the truth.

 

I thought that Pontius Pilate was a governor, or something like that and Jesus was a carpenter. How would their families be friends, it's two seperate social classes. Besides, Pilate wasn't a Jew why would he want to assosiate with them?

 

@ MW

Can you please show us these alledged "studies" where PP is shown to have been a friend of Jesus' family?

 

No, if the Jesus and the other apostles believed that only faith was necessary they would have put more emphasis on faith over works of faith. They don't, in fact Jesus says that only those who do the will of God will be saved.

 

Would you do the will of someone that doesn't exist? Can you show me examples of works before faith?

 

I don't say that faith is not important. Faith is the first virtue, but that doesn't mean it's the only virtue, and it doesn't mean that someone could loose their faith by their sin, such as the man Paul mentions who made a shipwreck of his faith. And when the apostles asked why a certain demon could not be driven out, Jesus said some are only driven out by prayer and fasting. These things must be done in faith but not faith alone.

 

Say a pirsoner is about to be executed. 5 minuets before he dies, he requests to speak with a chaplain. The prisoner accepts Christ on faith. He is then killed. He has no chance to demonstrate his faith through works. the question is: does he go to heaven? I say yes. What do you think?

 

You have not really given enough information. Does this man have only have faith or faith infused with charity, love, and hope? If this man was free, would he do the will of God? Will this man give up everything for God? If you suppose that he has only faith, not infused with love, charity, and hope, and he will do the will of God, you are using circular reasoning because you are assuming by faith alone one can do the will of God without God supplying other graces.

Christ said in John's gospel that the work of God was believing in him. When you say "accept" I will have to take it at face value that the man truly accepted Christ. He would eventually be in heaven then.

 

okinrus, I have no idea what on earth he is talking aboot but this might put it in perspective:

Remember, the sinners who were crucified with Christ?

I think he is talking about the saved one who died after accepting Christ without showing "works".

 

Let me say this: Christians don't want to go around lying and stealing. We all sin, so yes, sometimes they do do such things, but the grace of God allows them to be forgiven. If a christan knows that he will be forgiven if he sins, and he knows that he will allways sin as long as he in alive, then why does he do his best to avoid such things? It is because he understands that his faith saved him and that there is nothing he can offer to God, so he WANTS to try and please God. It's like a 5 year old when mother's day is coming up. He kknows that it's coming and he loves his mother very much, so he makes her a card. the card he makes isn't very pretty. It's got some augmented flower (or at least I think) on the front then the inside has written I Love You in a 5year old's neatest hand writing, which takes some skill to be able to read. He hands it to her and says, Mommy,I love you. The mother says I love you back. Why? not because she's impressed with his drawing abillities, the cat can draw better than her son, but because she appriciates the effort he put into it. We are God's children.

grace be to you

 

In this case the man did do works by not mocking Christ.

 

I think it was because he showed faith by his words. He made it clear that he understood what it was all about.

 

I know that guys, but works AFTER faith.

After his point of salvation, assuming there is such a thing (for those of you who dont believe in the elect), what works did he show?


I believe in the elect. It discredits "free will" which some have erroneously posited.

 

On this faith issue, it stands clear that belief without actions is dead. As it say in the Bible "Show me your belief without actions, and I'll show you with my actions my belief".

In Sweden we have the same word for faith and belief, so I don't know which one to use in the above passage, I used "belief" since it seemed less risky...

 

"In this case the man did do works by not mocking Christ. "

Are you impling that one good act plus salvation is good enough?

 

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M*W: Yes, I'll be glad to, but I believe I read this in a book at Barnes & Noble which I didn't purchase. I'll get back to you on this.