Can you imagine God? If so, how do you draw the line between imagination and a real god. It wouldn't be the use of reason would it? That just raises further questions? I know that the mind and physiological processes cannot tell the difference between what is real and what is clearly imagined. For instance if you close your eyes, relax, and clearly imagine in your mind picking a nice,fresh, juicy lemon from a tree, reaching into your pocket, taking out a knife, then cutting into that lemmon with its juices splurting out and running down your hand, then taking a nice big bite into that oh so tart lemon, it will actually cause your mouth to pucker up as if you were actually doing it. I am begining to wonder if it is even neccessary that an actual god exists, as long as that beleif is strong enough that it provides some practical means in this existence to fullfill ones needs, whatever that might be in ones own experience of life. Faith and and the productive use of imagination seem to be very closely related to me. Any thoughts?
I'm not aware of any other means to perceive God or any god other than through imagination. Or do you know something I don't? But the real issue is that Gods promise an afterlife and even though you can imagine a lemon as being very real the fantasy will not sustain your life and in the same way an imaginary after life will not prevent you from disappearing forever when you die. Kat
Herews 11 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Now do you understand?
Hi Kat Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Seems like were fairly close to being on the same page. What gods are you refering to that promise an after life?
Hi mo, Technically of course things that don't exist, like gods, can't promise anything. But really why would anyone worship a god that didn't provide a decent afterlife? And SouthStar you should realize that in the Christian myth Hell is not a place it is the grave. Eternal damnation means death of the spirit - the cessation of existence. So Hell is not part of the afterlife fantasy. Kat
What about a God that provided a better life here and now on this planet in this existence, hypothetically speaking of course. Too many preconcieved notions of what god is. A God is fine in my books as long as he allows me to live my own life, think for myself, and attain as high an independence as possible. If he just wants to watch me do my thing, no probs. If there was a god, I would tend to think that he would rather me think for myself, by the use of reason and deliberate thought, than to accept anything on faith, and produce any value in this life by my own efforts instead of always having to rely on God, like some one who continue to live in their parents basement. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If there is a god, I know he's looking down at the world and thinking, fuck, I should flood that place again. Then he sees me and goes, ahh, that boy makes it all worth it!!!!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Just kidding,...or am I?!!!!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
^^ hope not. @ Katazia Christian myth? Eternal damnation means "the cessation of existence"? Beg your pardon? Go look again at what eternal damnation means.
"Eternal damnation" is a silly fear tactic. Christians can shiver at the thought of death, the figment of Hell, and the creeping suspicion of the reality, or, better, the nihility, whereas I and every other sane, unintimidated person can say bring it. Religionists, in all forms, are cowards.
Pardon my being blunt, but that is a stupid thing to say. How can Christians "shiver at the thought of death"? Being a Christian means becoming perfect in God's eyes by His grace through the blood of the Lamb. That means Christians, as in blood-bought slaves of God, CANNOT "shiver at the thought of death" since that would mean they were not Christians to begin with.. So you see, your contradiction really is quite fantastic.
Hey, can't we just agree that I am fucking awesome?! Come on! It would bring everybody together, we could drink tea and all kinds of shit. Rap, your on beer duty. Southstar, you round up some bitches! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
What's stupid is the need religionists have for their fantasies. Why does one trust in a god, an invisible, intangible being? One trusts because a god promies eternal life. This is a relief from the fear of death, the fear of unknown territory, the fear of nonexistence. Thus, who are they that trust in a god, an invisible, intangible being? They are cowards, fearful of that which they know not. All men fear death. Religionists, however, Christians included, they lighten the load with their la-la land, pretending it's no big deal since they've been dealt a good hand by the big dealer upstairs. They think they're goin' somewhere. They think they're goin' to meet somebody. They think it's all goin' to be right as rain, happy as a dog in an meat house. They think the stars are just goin' to align in their favor, and, they're goin' to cash their chips and settle down for the long retirement in the big Florida in the sky. They have some great expectations of the cosmos, all right. Too bad those expectations are worth shit. You know, I've shuffled the deck, lived in Florida, and watched the stars, and all I have to add is this... AIN'T NOTHIN' GONNA SAVE YOU FROM DEATH.
:bugeye: Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Sorry, Jesus calls and He is awesome before you were awesome.
I do not know exactly why you are questioning it? Are you having some complex with your beliefs and what God is to you? I think we have all read felt, thought, and contemplated enough that we have made up our minds as to whether or not we individually believe in God, who's to ever say whether or not one exists? If something exists in your mind is it not as real to you as anything else? If it does not exist to someone else does it not exist? If you feel love but can not prove it, see it, draw it, or write down in words exactly, if there is no mathmatical equasion for it, DOES IT NOT EXIST? For a man to argue that the belief in a God is ignorant or unrealistic would make him as ignorant and unrealistic. You can not tell a man what he sees in his mind nor can he you. It is a waist of a good debate. The answer is that similar to what is the prettiest color? You believe the answer like a definition you read in the dicitionary but everyone does as well yet each answer is very different and very individual. And why does it matter if you change someones mind if you truley beilive there to be a GOD and you convince someone that there is if there really is, the day they sleep for the last time they will see it will they not? If there is not they will fall asleep and never wake up to know that you were wrong in believing that such a thing existed. It is a pointless debate on something that only matters at a point when you are no longer able to debate it either way and there is equal evidence presented on both sides. Your chaising your tail sir. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
SouthStar, Hell simply means the grave – it is not a place of eternal torment – that was a myth within the Christian myth. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.shtml The second death – if you are judged worthy, will not harm you, otherwise you will be destroyed permanently in the lake of fire. http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/47-0004.htm Most Christians don’t understand Hell or in fact ever read or study the bible but there are a lot of popular myths about Christianity that simply are not supported in the bible – everlasting punishment and the common idea of Hell is one such myth within the myth. Hope that helps. Kat
Matthew 13:40-42 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Didn't feel like typing the whole thing out so just read it in context. Concerning the issue of hell meaning "grave", how do you explain Mark chapter 9, where "Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus"? Shouldn't Moses and Elijah have been in "hell" then? What about in Luke 8:23, Jesus HIMSELF SPECIFICALLY SAYS: "The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." How do you account for these marvelous things?
SouthStar, So wouldn’t you weep etc if you were being burnt to death? The point is they are being consumed, destroyed permanently, it isn’t eternal punishment. I’d guess they had been written in the book if life and had survived the second death, so no. I believe you mean Luke 16: 22, 23. This is Jesus telling a parable it is not meant as fact. That issue is covered in my first link I posted. Search on Luke 16 – it is a long section. Kat
So are you saying Jesus was telling a "science fiction" story where two dead men came back? Of course it is not meant as fact.. but just like a story can be made to be "believable", this story is absolutely correct as far as the truth goes. Why would Jesus LIE in a parable about something he knew everything about? And sorry for saying Luke 8:23, I meant Mark 8:23.. LOL ----- As for Moses and Elijah, what second death are you talking about? Besides, if they were dead and gone to the "grave", how could they possibly descend before the events of Matthew 13:40-42 have taken place? --------- And (sorry about replying in reverse order), where exactly in the Bible does God speak about "being consumed, destroyed PERMANENTLY"? Why do you say that they will be burnt to death, can you corroborate that with scripture to mean physical fire? Look at this scripture: Revelation 14:9-11 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. I think that should clarify things.
