Is religion the source of morality?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by James R, Apr 28, 2004.

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Is religion the source of morality?

  1. Yes. True moral guidance can only come from religion.

    4 vote(s)
    16.0%
  2. No. Morality exists independent of religion.

    18 vote(s)
    72.0%
  3. Other (explained in the thread)...

    3 vote(s)
    12.0%
  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,397
    Some people argue that without religion, human beings would have no reason or incentive to act morally, because all morality ultimately comes from God. Therefore, without religion humanity would be morally bankrupt. There would be no reason to act morally if there was no God (or no religion).

    Do you agree? Why, or why not?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2004
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  3. Katazia Black Mamba Registered Senior Member

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    We could argue that religion is invented by man and therefore man has created these moral codes.

    Your poll might have made more sense if you had asked whether moral guidance can only come from God, etc. But that is a differnt question and you may well have intended this one as stated.

    But the classic arguments surrounding absolute and relative morality revolve around God and man, not religion and man.

    Kat
     
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  5. Paula Registered Senior Member

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    Katazia makes an excellent point. Religions evolve to handle the concept of God, not the other way around. I really enjoy being Catholic, but I am fully aware that many of the rituals are not specifically proscribed by Jesus. We are asked to believe in Him, to treat others with the kindess and forgiveness we wish to be treated with in turn and to pray in a private inner room so as not to be seen. That's the substance, everything else is style.

    I am not certain as to whether morality would be different without religions, certainly it would be improved without politicized religion. Since morality is different in the details but fundamentally the same in most cultures, the debate as to whether morality is a psychological necessity or an inherent awareness of God could go on forever. Religion is merely the tool.

    I should point out that I wasn't killing, stealing or pillaging when I was an atheist, even in cases where I surely would have gotten away with it.
     
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  7. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

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    Indeed, religion is the source of morality, it put purden on you to act morally, it has this guilt feeling and the fear that God will be angry from you.

    Athiests have no fear of any guilt, they have nothing to restrain them, they believe this is their only life so they will do everything to enjoy this vanity.

    Kat pointed to something very absurd, she said religion is man-made, if so, who made man ?????????
     
  8. Katazia Black Mamba Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    743
    Proud Muslim,

    Clearly you have no understanding of atheism yet.

    Rational morality is concerned entirely by man being able to determine what is good for man and what is bad for man. For example he must be able to understand that food is good for him and that poison is bad. In this way he stands a good chance of achieving survival and happiness.

    Most actions we take have consequences. If I took no heed of the consequences of my actions then my survival might well be very short lived. It is therefore very much in my best interest to follow a moral code that advances and increases my chances of survival and happiness.

    Similarly I can observe that my survival and happiness is significantly enhanced by cooperating within friendly and loving communities. In contrast I can observe that murder, thievery, etc will cause me stress of being caught and the risk of actually being caught and punished. These actions are therefore not in my best interests.

    The most useful type of morality is that set of codes determined by logic and reason for my personal benefit and which also translates to a significant communal benefit.

    Contrast this rational morality with religious morality which is a set of rigid and antiquated rules determined 1000 to 2000 years ago by men who lived in cultures and had life values far distant and different to the present time and modern requirements. Also religious morality, and certainly that from Christianity and Islam encourage significant persecution, intolerance and bigotry towards minorities because of vastly outdated values and lack of scientific understanding.

    Come now you need to study some science. Man arose through abiogenesis and then through many evolutionary processes. There is plenty of evidence for this and certainly no evidence of the creation myths which you support.

    Kat
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2004
  9. Katazia Black Mamba Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    743
    Proud Muslim,

    Unlike you I act morally because it is the correct thing to do not because I am in fear of punishment by an imaginary god.

    Who then is the more moral between us? You for acting because of fear of punishment or me because I can recognize rationally the correct actions?

    I suffer no stress from guilt or fear since I have taught myself how to think for myself. You on the other hand seem to be driven and directed entirely by fear and guilt. You have my sympathies and I can direct you to some useful literature on critical thinking and rational morality if you wish.

    Kat
     
  10. DoctorNO Ultra Electro Agnostic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    719
    I have a 3 yr old daughter who is moral, behaved and courteous even though she is not aware of any god or religion.

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  11. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    3,833
    You're confusing survival instincts and common sense with morality. The truth is, morality more often contradicts the premises of 'survival', such as sacrifice.
    And you're confusing social norms with morality. The only reason you call her "moral" is because you believe being 'behaved and couteous' is moral - she probably doesn't even know she's being moral. She simply acts as you would expect a human to act. You learned all the characteristics that morality consists of, and how they should look, and you'll correct and teach her accordingly, even though she already undersands the principle of it (probably only because of it). You'll better appreciate this when she stops being reasonable or curteous in a few years, and you'll wonder whether it was you or she who went wrong.

    In both these cases the real question is: why should nature have a certain nature? Since morality is just 'the nature of human nature' - behaviour that regulates behaviour. Why should it be regulated, if nature is to take its course?
     
  12. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

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    5,574
    Probably because you made her that way and you were inspired by religion.

    There is an instinctual decency but religion has magnified it into the obscure and the obscurity is upheld by even athiests because our culture is so heavily influenced by religion.

    An athiest should acknowledge this influence and then go about finding what is truely moral and immoral from the natural human animal's perspective.
    But they don't, they just go with religious moral codes because they are there and its easy.
    If you were born into a different society, ancient rome for example, you would yearn for human slaves and you probably would have killed a few people by now.
    You wouldn't be 'evil' you'd be you in a different environment. The soft nice people in those times argued human slaves should not be grossly mistreated, they didn't even consider abolishing slavery.
    It seems to me that this makes it obvious that our ideas of what is wrong are cultural illusions.
    Our real morals would transcend cultural boundaries throughout history. This would probably narrow down the list of whats wrong substantially. And so be it. Whats the point in abiding by fake morals? Sure they feel real, thats what it is like to be brainwashed, understanding that is the first step to becoming not brainwashed.
     
  13. DoctorNO Ultra Electro Agnostic Registered Senior Member

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    719
    Jenyar how do you define "morality"?

    Dr Lou, of course I made her that way. Still proves that morality is not dependent on religion.
     
  14. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,833
    That's where religion comes in. It held people to greater morals while lesser ones were still acceptible, the greatest of which was being accountable to God, and not only to your peers. It makes morality that is usually relative and culturally determined subject to a higher ideal, when such a higher ideal has no other, "rational" reason to be taken seriously.

    Dr Lou, do you have an example where religion has a negative influence on generally accepted morality? And do you have some kind of idea what morality would look like if the ten commandments, for example were taken out of it?
     
  15. DoctorNO Ultra Electro Agnostic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    719
    That’s exactly what Christians, Jews, Muslims & Animists did for thousands of years. None of your gods prohibited slavery. Your gods even defined how to be a good slave. And your gods encouraged you to kill for petty crimes. Shall I blame it on religion?
     
  16. DoctorNO Ultra Electro Agnostic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    719
    Morality developed greatly when religion started to lose its grip. When the people learned to separate church from state.


    And Jenyar how do you define "morality"?
     
  17. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,833
    Morality is being human in every sense of the word, and not being an animal in every sense of the word.

    In that respect it doesn't require religion because it's intrinsically human, but it also describes everything that religion is about: being exactly who God created us to be. Just like children growing up, we have a instinctive understanding of it, but also an instinctive denial of it. Religion appeals to the higher ideals, nature appeals to the lower.

    That's why I have a problem with moral naturalists: they appeal to our animal nature, and at the same time admit that we should strive against them - then they call it "natural evolution", which is a complete contradiction. A revolution of the mind must be a revolution against nature, or there would be no revolution required.

    How do you figure that? Arguably, universal morality (as we know it today ) started to develop only when the Roman Empire lost its grip on the world, and then became universally worse when church and state converged again and the corruption of each was multiplied. Unless by religion you mean only "Christianity", in which case you should have said so.

    That's another aspect of morality: you can't pick on an instance of morality and hold that up as the end-all and be-all of it. Slavery was not always racism, and it was not always corrupt. It didn't carry the stigma it does today, and there also wasn't an economy to replace it. Biblical morality therefore addressed racism, corruption and ethical behaviour, not slavery. Today slavery has only become "reformed". There are still hierarchies in society, and some even propose that it's intrinsically immoral. So you might as well start now and be progressive: when an employee and his boss eventually have the same status and authority, will you use the same argument against every corporate system in the world and the laws that protect them?

    Have you considered the possibility that the world as we know it is built on moral and immoral principles, and you don't save the one by prohibiting the other - you have to reform it, change the way people think and act towards each other. Religion does this realizing that we need God's help to do it, because we don't know what is ultimately good for us.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2004
  18. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,766
    Really ? how about the dictionary ???

    3 entries found for atheism.
    a·the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-zm)
    n.

    1

    a Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
    b The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

    2
    Godlessness; immorality.


    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=atheism

    Even the dictionary define athiesm are Godlessness, IMMORALITY !!

    Morality has nothing to do with physical needs such as food, it is about consciousness of how to get the food ( stealing for example is immoral ).

    You said it, you want to follow a moral CODE , only religion can provide such code.

    Here you go again displaying scandelous ignorance of religion ! Religion did not start by men ( certainly not the case with judaism, christianity and Islam, the three abrahamic faiths ), Islam did not start by prophet Muhammad (pbuh ), prophet Muhammad (pbuh ) was a MEAN to deliver the message, his inspired knowledge span over ages and histories. to say religion is man made is very ignorant statement indeed.

    I cant talk about christianity, but I talk about Islam, again, you are displaying outrageous ignorance of Islam and its teachings, here is some verses from the quran dealing with NON MUSLIMS and from the saying of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh ):

    This long list of verses from the Holy Quran and the Traditions of Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) show that Islam at it's core and at its source is a religion of peace. Terrorists who persecute innocent people because of their faith are not welcome - their use of Islam as a scapegoat, does not make Islam what they portray it to be.
    2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

    16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

    6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.

    4:79, 80 (Say to everyone of them,) 'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have (O Prophet) sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

    11:28 (Noah to his people) He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If 1 act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

    17:53, 54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you (Unto men O Prophet) with power to determine their Faith.

    21:107 to 109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour (of Judgment) is near or far."

    22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites (of prayer) which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord (since that is the main objective of religion). You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, (then say,) `God best knows (the value of) what you do."

    88:21, 22; also see 24:54 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

    48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the (task of spreading) Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every (false) religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.

    36:16, 17 (Three Messengers to their people)Said (the Messengers), "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'

    39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

    42:6, 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

    64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

    67:25, 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

    60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

    60:9 Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

    The teachings of the Prophet on how you and I should treat our Non-Muslim friends and neighbours on a day to day basis as well as how to government should treat a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state.

    "He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

    "Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

    "He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

    "Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)

    "Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism_verses1.htm

    We already debated the ILLUSION (evolution ) none sense before, I have no time to go on again entertaining stupid idea such as the evolution, these sites might be helpful for you:

    http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/

    http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/

    http://www.harunyahya.com

    http://www.theunjustmedia.com/Darwi...futed/Darwinism refuted table of contents.htm
     
  19. Proud_Muslim Shield of Islam Registered Senior Member

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    1,766
    May I ask you how many times you cheated on your boyfriend/husband..etc ????????

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    You dont act morally because you were born moral, it is your family who have RELIGION taught you that stealing is wrong..it is very absurd to say you are moral because you are moral erasing your background and your childhood and the impact your family had on you.

    This is nonesense, you are always living in fear, fear of death, you are disoriented, you dont know why you are here and where you are going after, while me, I am living very happy life ( Alhamdo llah-thanks Allah ) I know why i am here, I know where I am going after death and I am NOT AFRAID to die.

    Sympathy from Pagan athiests is REJECTED, and as we say in Syria:

    Since when ADULTEROUS can give any lectures on VIRGINITY !!!!!

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  20. Paula Registered Senior Member

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    196
    Regarding the persecution of others in Christianity, this was absolutely not taught by Christ. Separation of church and state has actually encouraged the growth of Christianity in particular because it removed religion as a political tool. Jesus told us to love our enemies, love the poor, love the world. He told us not to be greedy or to envy others or to take what is not ours. He also taught that church and state should be separate. Surely then, the problem is the failure of the religious construct and not the teachings themselves.

    Morality is not constrained to those with or without a religion but I have personally seen less moral behavior by those I know to be without a belief in God. In many cases this behavior is extremely hurtful and I think it is encouraged by the feeling that there is no ultimate accountability. This is not to say that I have never seen such behavior by those who are religious, I would have to say that overall, it is more the other way around.

    Kat, let me stress again, most religious people I know do not solely act in a moral way out of fear of hellfire or simply to get the payoff at the end of the day. They truly believe in God and want to live that kind of life. I agree with you that whether or not you believe it attains something for you in the next life, it certainly makes this one more pleasant. I had long assumed, after a friend's NDE, that there was some sort of survival of consciousness after death, but I did not necessarily think it was related to a God of any kind. Therefore, I was not particularly afraid of death.

    I was raised morally so I was likewise not particularly immoral. The biggest difference for me personally, in religion, is not the morality or the ultimate payoff but the peaceful feeling I get from finally having made all the pieces fit together properly. Where this aspect of religion is emphasized, morality naturally follows.

    Dr. No,

    I can see no difference in your examples of persecution of minorities for religious reasons and persecution of minorites for cultural reasons, economic reasons, political reasons or social reasons. However, no one would argue that culture, economy, politics and society in themselves are bad ideas, simply that they are ideas that are powerful enough that they are vulnerable to abuse.
     
  21. DoctorNO Ultra Electro Agnostic Registered Senior Member

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    719
    I am more in favor of Webster’s definition:

    • Main Entry: mo•ral•i•ty
      Pronunciation: m&-'ra-l&-tE, mo-
      Function: noun
      Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
      1 a : a moral discourse, statement, or lesson b : a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson
      2 a : a doctrine or system of moral conduct b plural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct
      3 : conformity to ideals of right human conduct
      4 : moral conduct : VIRTUE

      Main Entry: mor•al
      Pronunciation: 'mor-&l, 'mär-
      Function: adjective
      Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin moralis, from mor-, mos custom
      1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>
      2 : probable though not proved : VIRTUAL <a moral certainty>
      3 : having the effects of such on the mind, confidence, or will <a moral victory> <moral support>

    So a person can be moral even without the influence of religion. All you need to be moral is a set of conduct guidelines, rules & regulations. Laws.

    My godless & religionless young daughter is morally behaved.
     
  22. Thersites Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    535
    A problem for the religionists:
    Religious people say that only religion can be a source of morality; "it put the burden on you to act morally. It has a guilt feeling and the fear that god will be angry with you."
    Surely this raises a quandary however. Notice that this statement of Proud Moslem which most believers would accede to, says nothing about god being moral. God is the creator of morality through religion. Morality only exists through the religion made by god. But if this is so, then god itself is not moral at all and morality is an arbitrary set of rules made by god and there is no moral reason (as distinct from cowardice and superstition) to obey these rules. On the other hand, if god is moral in itself, then morality exists regardless of what god and religion and there is no need of religion for people to be moral.
     
  23. Angelus Daughter Of House Ravenhearte Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    431
    I think you aren't really understanding the message of moral naturalists, or you've been getting your information from the wrong source. We have no "animal nature." We have only one nature, and that is human nature. Because humans are animals one could call it animal nature, but that would be misleading, because all animals have different natures. "Natural evolution" is not a contradiction. There is no revolution involved in evolution, although the words may sound similiar. The nature of life is to change, and that's what humans do. There is no reason to revolt against this nature, doing so would merely prove that your part of it.

    It makes me sad that your opinion of the human race is so small.
     

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