These pagan Gods are very very similar to Jesus. Some go as far as to say that there was no Jesus as the Gospel portrays him. ATTIS - Phrygia: Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savoir. BUDDIAH – INDIA: Born of the Virgin Maya on December 25th. He was announced by a star and attended by wise men presenting costly gifts. At birth angles sing heavenly songs. He taught in temple at age 12. Tempted by Mara, the Evil One (Satan), while fasting. He was baptized in water with the Spirit of God present. Buddiah healed the sick and fed 500 from a small basket of cakes and even walked on water. He came to fulfill the law and preached the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness and obliged followers to poverty and to renounce the world. He transfigured on a mount. Died (on a cross, in some traditions), buried but arose again after tomb opened by supernatural powers. Ascended into heaven (Nirvana). Will return in later days to judge the dead. Buddiah was called: "Good Shepherd," "Carpenter," "Alpha and Omega," "Sin Bearer," "Master," "Light of the World," "Redeemer," etc. DIONYSUS - GREECE: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed many miracles. Turned water into wine. Followers ate sacred meal that became the body of the god. He rose from the dead March 25th. Identified with the ram and lamb's and was called "King of Kings," "Only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin bearer," "Anointed One," the "Alpha and Omega." HERACLES – GREECE: Born at the winter equinox of a virgin who refrained from sex with her until her god-begotten child was born and was sacrificed at the spring equinox. He too, was called "Savior," "Only begotten," "Prince of Peace," "Son of Righteousness." KRISHNA - INDIA: Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his tax to the king. His nativity heralded by a star, Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki in a cave, which at the time of his birth was miraculously illuminated. The cow-herds adored his birth. King Kansa sought the life of the Indian Christ by ordering the massacre of all male children born during the same night at He. Krishna traveled widely, performing miracles -- raising the dead, healing lepers, the deaf and the blind. The crucified Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended. Pierced by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but descended into Hell from which He rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven. (The Gospel of Nicodemus tell of Jesus' descent into Hell.) He will return on the last day to judge the quick and the dead. Krishna is the second person of the Hindu trinity. OSIRIS – EGYPT: He came to fulfill the law. Called "KRST," the "Anointed One." Born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger, with his birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men. Earthly father named "Seb" (translates to "Joseph.") At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple and at 30 he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years. Osiris was baptized in the river Iarutana -- the river Jordan -- by "Anup the Baptizer," who was beheaded. (Anup translates to John.) He performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the dead. Walked on water and was betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of the month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr) and was resurrected. His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter. Called "The Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "god's Anointed Son,' the "Son of Man," the "Word made Flesh," the "word of truth." Expected to reign a thousand years. Persian legends of Mithras says that He was born of the Sun God and a virgin mother, called "the Mother of God", on December 25th. They saw him as a symbol of justice, truth, and loyalty. He was considered the saviour of humankind, and stories abound of His healing the sick, raising the dead, and performing miracles (making the blind see and the lame walk). Throughout His lifetime, He was seen as a protector of human souls, a mediator between "heaven" and "earth" and was even associated with a "holy trinity". He remained celibate, until the ripe old age of 64, throughout his life and preached the virtues of ethics, moral behavior, and good will. Does this sound familiar? Sure sounds like Jesus.Ancient Persians believed in a "celestial heaven" and hell. They believed that they would be judged by their god and granted justice of" eternal salvation. On judgement day, the faithful dead would be resurrected and light would triumph over darkness. They took part in ritual purification or baptism, held Sundays sacred, drank wine and ate bread as a symbol of the body and blood and even took part in ritualistic purging (purification rites such as flagellation). In their legends, Mithras had an "earthly mission' to accomplish. He then was put to death on a cross and buried in a cave (some legends have Him held in a cave to be reborn once a year). He then "rose from the dead" and took part in a last supper with his 12 disciples (often associated with the 12 signs of the zodiac) and then ascended to the heavens to watch over His "flock" from above. 1) Hundreds of years before Jesus, according to the Mithraic religion, three Wise Men of Persia came to visit the baby savior-god Mithra, bring him gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense. 2) Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”.c 3) According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a “Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac. 4) After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb. 5) Mithra had a celibate priesthood. 6) Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring (Passover) equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length). http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html
Two quick points: Distringuish between the question of historicity and divinity, and Buy and read The Roman Cult of Mithras by Manfred Claus. The endless repetition of tired, and often unsubstantiated, parallels gets tiresome.
Well, surely it was obvious that all those cultures time-travelled to the future (2000 years ago) spotted good old (in Latin) Jesu Christe and decided to base their own gods on him? BTW, that December 25th birthday thing (as everyone knows) is crap. They made Christmas that day to please and convert the pagans. No-one really thinks that was the day Jesus was born.
I got flamed to death on this a year ago. Despite not being religious, I had always accepted the existence of Jesus as a real, albeit exaggerated, historical figure. I was convinced by the writings of Josephus, a Jew employed as a chronicler by the Romans, who dutifully devoted a couple of column-inches to Jesus and the alleged "Christ" phenomenon. It turns out that those passages in Josephus's writings were forgeries, added centuries later, as several more scholarly members kindly pointed out. There are in fact zero contemporary writings about Jesus -- his birth, life, or execution. Rather odd for a compulsively bureaucratic empire like Rome, that left copious records of minutiae. The first written accounts mentioning Jesus appeared an entire generation after the time of his death. It does seem likely that the Jesus myth was cobbled together out of the universal archetypes you mentioned. The virgin birth, the resurrection, etc. (Archetypes are images that occur over and over in various cultures, times, and locations. Other common ones are the flood that destroys the world, the man swallowed by a big fish or whale, the human baby raised by wolves or dogs, the bird reborn out of its own ashes, and the weeping woman heard in the distance walking through the night. Archetypes are either: A. the random results of evolution, synapses that we happened to inherit from Lucy; B. the result of natural selection, synapses that in some obscure way helped our ancestors survive so the people who didn't have them died off; C. gifts from the goddess inserted into our brains during our trip down the birth canal, reminders that deep down inside we're all the same.) It's often said about famous people, "If he hadn't existed, we'd have to invent him." Sometimes that's exactly what we do.
Hi all. First off, I have to agree with Fraggle rocker that some parts of the Jesus myth are from older archetypes, but I would limit the scope to those archetypes that were well-known and popular at the time the stories of Jesus were written (i.e., Virgin birth), and most of these from the Judean and greek cultures (who might have gotten into those cultures from earlier cultures, etc). Other aspects are almost cultural in how they came about. Christmas, for example, was not actually even known to be the date of Jesus's birth when it was first established, but was at the time of the Christianization of the Roman empire an already existing festivity (several actually), Saturnalia, birth of Mithras, etc. I believe that since the Roman people were already used to "partying" during this time of year, Christianity simply assimiliated it and repackaged it as the feast of Christ's birth. (A similiar incident occur in England when Christimas is outlawed for these very reasons [i.e. it really could not have been Jesus's B-Day, was derived from pagan festivals] , and the result was that the partying just went underground). Actually, when you study the origins of Christianity, it was a very logical consequence of the destruction of Judea and the temple in 70AD by the Romans. Both modern rabbinical Judaism and Christianity arose from the fallout of that event. Combine Judean superstitions, including messianic expectations, with possibly a Gallilean rabbi or sage, add Greek and judean archetypes and, viola, Christianity was born. Personally, I do believe that there was a Gallilean rabbi or sage named Jesus who preached a sort of universal "kingdom of god" idea, all people are equal, etc, (an idea that would have been considered highly seditious to the then superpower Roman empire based on slavery and submission), gets himself executed for these teachings, and somehow got to be a messiah for at least one group who survived the destruction of Judea. I say this because, I think that there are traces of an historical figure and some of his deeds like this in the existant Christian literature. Just my opinion, fwiw. Fortuna
The key attribute of archetypes is that they already exist in our "collective unconscious" -- the hard-wired synapses that we're all born with. Joseph Campbell was the premiere student of archetypes and he found the same ones in New Guinea, Africa, the Inuit, the Saami ("Lapps"), the industrial nations, everywhere. They all existed in Roman times. When a large group of people has an experience that they all relate to one of these built-in dreams, a new legend is born. Sometimes something happens that is so similar to the archetype that it gives it a boost. There was a report recently that seemed to be well documented about a young boy (pre-school but not an infant) in the slums of Brazil who fell in with a pack of dogs. When he was finally captured after a year or so he was well adapted to the life of a dog. I'm sure some shrinks and social workers had a great project of reintegrating him into human society. I also bet that in a few more years the story will have slowly changed with the retelling and it will be Romulus and Remus in Rio.
This is what I know about the supposed archetypes of older religions in a nutshell. Most of the earliest references to such emtpy tomb or messiah/virgin birth phenomena were actually written from the first to the third centuries and some as late as ten centuries after the life of Jesus. Since much of the documentation about these pagan belief systems came after Jesus, it is impossible to say that these writing were not influenced by accounts of Jesus . I believe Sir Frazer and Lord Raglan were the first to put forward the theory of pagan Christs and used writings which occurred long after the time of Jesus. Frazer and Raglan used Greek and Latin sources written from 150 to 300 AD for their theories, which have since been cast in doubt. It is likely that Greek and Latin scholars of the time would have wanted to undermine the story of Christ. The cult of Attis, I believe, developed after Jesus and not before.
MW, It has not been proven that these demigods existed with all of the attendant phenomena similar to that surrounding Jesus. Much of that was added after the life of Jesus, although the demigods most likely did exist before Jesus. I'm sorry, my dear, did my differing opinion upset you again? You really are quite fragile. Please continue to respond to my posts. It's quite fun and you are rather an easy mark! Have a nice day! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Your friend Paula
The Egyptian gods definitely existed before Jesus. It was written and the "son of God" concept was already there.
There is no Jesus mentioned in the Old Testament. So they just forgot about him for a while? What happened?
Man in his natural wisdom cannot comprehend the things of God. They are spiritually discerned/experienced. God is a Spirit. You come to know Jesus and experience Him through faith. All arguments against Jesus christ does not change His reality. I have experienced the healing,saving power of Jesus. Jesus is real and he saves from sinful living,heals sickness and gives true peace. Just call on the name of Jesus in truth/sincerity and you'll find out. O taste and see that the Lord is good.
Jeus is all over the Old tetament. all it takes is to read the holy book. He is refered to as the messiah.For example in the book of Isaiah chapter 51, verses 9....."For unto us a child is born,unto us a son is given. The government will be upon His shoulders. His names shall be Prince of peace,wonderful counselor,Everlasting Father,the Mighty God. And his kingdom shall have no end.
It AMAZES me that you of all people would even dare to call someone "sorely stupid". Ignorance! Show me your proof that "demigod saviors existed before Jesus' time proving he's a fake." Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The audacity! I would say more but I am fuming right now.. how can you call someone "sorely stupid" and make such an uneducated statement. I have read a few of your replies during my short stay at sciforums and I advise you to be conscious of your own shortcomings and inferiority to Supreme Deity. "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye."
What he meant to say is THROUGH the Spirit of Holiness. Without the Spirit of Holiness, you CANNOT have faith since you are by nature inclined to rebelliousness against God. And what exactly do you mean about looking in a concordance? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
