Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[Dywyddyr]

Do you actually understand what logic is?

I do.

Because you don't appear to.

Really?
Please elucidate.

Still waiting by the way...

[Pincho Paxton]

I do.


Really?
Please elucidate.

Still waiting by the way...

You will always be waiting.. its all there in my posts. All you have to do is learn how to acknowledge information.

[Dywyddyr]

You will always be waiting.. its all there in my posts.

Really?
Yet one of your claims is that I have stated something that I didn't.

All you have to do is learn how to acknowledge information.

Maybe you could learn how to be honest.

If it's in your posts could you please (again) tell me which ones: specifically.

[Pincho Paxton]

Really?
Yet one of your claims is that I have stated something that I didn't.



Maybe you could learn how to be honest.

If it's in your posts could you please (again) tell me which ones: specifically.

So you want me to rewrite everything again when it is already there? So I have to go back, search for it, copy paste it, copy paste your replies, and waste ages doing something which is already there? After doing that I have to write them in small, tiny words.. like cat, dog, Jack Jill?

[Dywyddyr]

So you want me to rewrite everything again when it is already there?

Um,

If it's in your posts could you please (again) tell me which ones: specifically.

[GeoffP]

Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.

Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

Proposal:

Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

Reasoning:

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.

Question:

If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.

Conclusions:

If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.

Cris

I've often wondered about the logic underpinning the above supposition: the idea that perfect omniscience must be employed, for example. Could not an omnipotent being use such arcane powers as to prevent itself consciously knowing such an outcome? Could not any decision or outcome be rendered deliberately susceptible to chance?

[Dywyddyr]

I've often wondered about the logic underpinning the above supposition: the idea that perfect omniscience must be employed, for example. Could not an omnipotent being use such arcane powers as to prevent itself consciously knowing such an outcome? Could not any decision or outcome be rendered deliberately susceptible to chance?

Does it matter whether he actually lets himself consciously know matter?
If the knowledge itself is at all available then the future must be fixed.

[Pincho Paxton]

Um,

Jack and Jill version...

Thread title

Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

And the PARADOX conclusions

Conclusions:

If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.

You asked....

So, any "explanation" as to why the paradox isn't a paradox?

Then my post...

“
Originally Posted by Pincho Paxton
So the Paradox has to close before God can exist else he will create man
”

Then your reply...

Nope.

YOU have claimed that it's not a paradox.
YOU have claimed there's a loophole.

Neither have been demonstrated so far.

Which mathematically equals this...
Pincho = "The paradox has to close before God can exist" = God exists = 0 to complete Chris's Paradox confirmation. God = 0
Dywyddyr = "Nope!" = God exists = 1 True.. God can exist to complet Chris's Paradox.

Pincho = God = 0


Dywyddyr = God = 1 but no Paradox loophole.

Yet Paradox = God = 0

So to say God = 1 but no Paradox Loophole = God = 0 and God = 1

Which means that you have God both existing, and not existing at the same time just so that you can avoid facing that you lost the argument.

[Dywyddyr]

Meaningless drivel.
The paradox does not have to "close" before god can exist.
I did not claim that god exists: I was pointing out that your claim was in error.
As for the rest of it...

And, as you have quoted in that post:

YOU have claimed that it's not a paradox.
YOU have claimed there's a loophole.

Neither have been demonstrated so far.

And you STILL haven't demonstrated either.

[Pincho Paxton]

Meaningless drivel.
The paradox does not have to "close" before god can exist.
I did not claim that god exists: I was pointing out that your claim was in error.
As for the rest of it...

And, as you have quoted in that post:


And you STILL haven't demonstrated either.

The Pardox is to confirm the thread title God = 0. So you can't allow the Paradox to allow God at any point in time. So you....

The paradox does not have to "close" before god can exist.

which is...

Paradox = God = 0
You = God is allowed to exist in the Paradox

God = 0 and God = 1.

[kx000]

Pincho's "argument" seems to boil down to this: You can have Free Will even if somebody knows what you are going to do.

I.e. a mere claim.
No support, no logic, nothing...

Fail.

Its simple. God knows what I am going to do next. He does not cause what I am going to do next. My thoughts (free will) caused me to skip "The Old Man Down the Road" on Pandora, not because God doesn't like Jonh Fogerty. Yes, the ending has been determined, Heaven on earth. If free will does not exist, then the ending has been determined, yes?

Free will does exist, the ending is determined because God understands the effects of giving man free will is inevitably Heaven on earth.

[Dywyddyr]

Its simple. God knows what I am going to do next. He does not cause what I am going to do next.

No one has claimed that he does cause it.
Fail.

Free will does exist, the ending is determined because God understands the effects of giving man free will is inevitably Heaven on earth.

Still can't doing anything other than repeat the claim?
Can't actually refute the logic?

Why are you wasting time when you're obviously not capable of an actual refutation?

[Arioch]

@Knowledge --

God knows what I am going to do next. He does not cause what I am going to do next.

Wrong. God caused your actions the moment that he created the universe, and he knew that he was going to do that an eternity before he actually did it.

The rest of your post is just nonsense.

[Dywyddyr]

The Pardox is to confirm the thread title

Try to read the OP.

You = God is allowed to exist in the Paradox

Try to reread what I have actually stated.

God = 0 and God = 1.

Wrong.

Since you can't be bothered to read the thread, or even read (or understand the OP) I'll represent it for you.

1) God is claimed to be omniscient.
2) It is also claimed that we have free will.

If god is omniscient then he knows infallibly what we will do in any given situation. If it is known (beyond doubt) that we will do A then we cannot do anything other than A, whatever we may tell ourselves.

3) THEREFORE either god is not omniscient OR we do not have free will.


A paradox is "X AND Y = inconsistent" therefore X OR Y must be wrong. Got it yet? One OR the other.

[GeoffP]

Does it matter whether he actually lets himself consciously know matter?
If the knowledge itself is at all available then the future must be fixed.

Well, we're considering a being with theoretically unlimited power. Even a simple human has a conscious and unconscious: isn't this a segregation of knowledge, albeit an involuntary one. What if the information were available but not accessed? is my question.

As to whether the future were fixed, what if along the same lines it were permitted to be random, and God didn't look into that future, therefore not informing Himself of outcome?

[Pincho Paxton]

Try to read the OP.


Try to reread what I have actually stated.


Wrong.

Since you can't be bothered to read the thread, or even read (or understand the OP) I'll represent it for you.

1) God is claimed to be omniscient.
2) It is also claimed that we have free will.

If god is omniscient then he knows infallibly what we will do in any given situation. If it is known (beyond doubt) that we will do A then we cannot do anything other than A, whatever we may tell ourselves.

3) THEREFORE either god is not omniscient OR we do not have free will.


A paradox is "X AND Y = inconsistent" therefore X OR Y must be wrong. Got it yet? One OR the other.

First... You can't have an OR in a proof that God does not exist.
Second... I already covered Free Will, you are only backtracking.

So you have to either go with.. there is a loophole, because you just posted one. Or God doesn't exist.

[Dywyddyr]

What if the information were available but not accessed? is my question.

But that's what I replied to:

If the knowledge itself is at all available then the future must be fixed.

The only way that knowledge could exist (accessed or not) is if the future were pre-written.

As to whether the future were fixed, what if along the same lines it were permitted to be random, and God didn't look into that future, therefore not informing Himself of outcome?

But how can you have lines at random if the future is fixed?
Remember this is omniscience we're talking about: EVERYTHING - every little decision. If there were "options" at any stage then, despite a final outcome being known the intermediary steps wouldn't be... hence not OMNIscient.

[Dywyddyr]

First... You can't have an OR in a proof that God does not exist.

Wrong. Read the OP.
The corollary of us not having free is that god therefore is not omnibenevolent.
Which negates his existence. But the omniscience vs. free will is an either/ or logic.

Second... I already covered Free Will, you are only backtracking.

Covered it?
No, you have made unsupported claims.
Fail again.

So you have to either go with.. there is a loophole, because you just posted one.

No I didn't. Please try to address what I actually write.

Or God doesn't exist.

Not on the omniscience vs. free will. It's either/ or.

[wynn]

If god is omniscient then he knows infallibly what we will do in any given situation. If it is known (beyond doubt) that we will do A then we cannot do anything other than A, whatever we may tell ourselves.

What is the practical impact of this concern?

[wynn]

The corollary of us not having free will is that god therefore is not omnibenevolent.

Why? Why would that be the corollary? What are the assumptions needed to arrive at this corollary?