Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[Dywyddyr]

Knowledge by looking into our future allows randomness

Unsupported claim.

I can't work out the Lotto numbers but I can look at them in the future

And if you look at them in the future and the numbers are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (or whatever) can they be different when they are drawn?

But you are supposed to stick to Christian beliefs

Exactly what we are doing.

Christians believe in Free Will.

Once again: of course they do. And holding that belief while ALSO believing that god is omniscient creates the paradox.

THIS THE POINT BEING MADE!

[Pincho Paxton]

Unsupported claim.



And if you look at them in the future and the numbers are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (or whatever) can they be different when they are drawn?


Exactly what we are doing.


Once again: of course they do. And holding that belief while ALSO believing that god is omniscient creates the paradox.

THIS THE POINT BEING MADE!

So if we allow Christians Free Will, we will have to use the time loop version.

[Dywyddyr]

So if we allow Christians Free Will, we will have to use the time loop version.

Which part did you miss?

Originally Posted by Pincho Paxton
Knowledge by looking into our future allows randomness

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr
Unsupported claim.

And if you look at them in the future and the numbers are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (or whatever) can they be different when they are drawn?

if the knowledge is available AT ALL then free will is dead.

You're wrong.
It is irrelevant HOW god gets his knowledge.

And your comment

I've never heard of God knowing things without looking into the future before.

also appears to be in error.
The bible simply says that god knows. (Method unspecified).

[Pincho Paxton]

Which part did you miss?









You're wrong.
It is irrelevant HOW god gets his knowledge.

And your comment

also appears to be in error.
The bible simply says that god knows. (Method unspecified).

No, I mean I was told about Omnipresence so I didn't hear about any other version.

[Dywyddyr]

No, I mean I was told about Omnipresence so I didn't hear about any other version.

Well done on ignoring completely the rest of the post.
Are you going to address that?

[Pincho Paxton]

Anyway.. time loop version...

Man = M
Eats Apple = A
God Watches = G
Creates Man = C
Free Will = F

C.....F..M..F...F.. FA...G

[Dywyddyr]

Irrelevant.
Waste of time.
Already been addressed.
Oh, and specious.

One more time:
if the knowledge is available AT ALL then free will is dead.

[harvestdoing]

Cris, sorry but your argument is quite spurious. The Christian message is that God was incarnated as a man who both lived the perfect life and then also became the perfect sacrifice that no other being(personage) could make because Jesus was the only mediator between God and man (both human and divine). As such, God limited Himself to time, space and the constraints of mankind. God has also limited His judgment and withheld it until a time prescribed in the future that only He has knowledge of. The Bible says that God has set the boundaries of man's habitation - in other words, man has freewill within the constraints of those limits. Man is allowed freedom to accept or reject salvation in Christ, he is able to make choices within his life so long as they fit within the over plan and protection of His people. (God works all things together for good to those who love Him and are the called according to His purpose Rom. 8:28).

[Pincho Paxton]

Irrelevant.
Waste of time.
Already been addressed.
Oh, and specious.

One more time:
if the knowledge is available AT ALL then free will is dead.

No.. you need to use my figures to make your point. Or some figures at least.

[Dywyddyr]

Cris, sorry but your argument is quite spurious.

Care to actually show us why?

The Christian message is that God and blah blah blah to those who love Him and are the called according to His purpose Rom. 8:28).

I'm sorry. Could you support your claim please.
With logic and reasoning.
All you've done is argue in favour of free will without addressing the (claimed) omniscience of god.
Plus, of course, you've used what is said in the bible to "make" your argument.
The bible was supposedly dictated (or inspired) by god - the same being whose existence is being questioned here. You can't assume a priori that god exists to support the argument that god exists.
It doesn't work.

Could you please address the logic?
Simpler version (again):
1) God is claimed to be omniscient.
2) It is also claimed that we have free will.

If god is omniscient then he knows infallibly what we will do in any given situation. If it is known (beyond doubt) that we will do A then we cannot do anything other than A, whatever we may tell ourselves.

3) THEREFORE either god is not omniscient OR we do not have free will.

Although, having read (and replied to) your last effort at supporting your belief (here) I don't hold out much hope for rationality.

[Dywyddyr]

No.. you need to use my figures to make your point. Or some figures at least.

Incorrect.
1) I have already shown that using the "time loop" method then what we see as the future is the FIXED past for someone else: no change.
2) I have already (numerous times) explained why the existence of knowledge of the future negates free will.
3) you have failed (twice now) to address my question:

And if you look at them [lottery numbers] in the future and the numbers are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (or whatever) can they be different when they are drawn?

[Pincho Paxton]

And if you look at them [lottery numbers] in the future and the numbers are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (or whatever) can they be different when they are drawn?

Not in the future, but as you go into the future they are now in the past.

[Dywyddyr]

Not in the future, but as you go into the future they are now in the past.

Let's try the simple version.
If you go into the future and see the lottery numbers how can they turn out to be different when you back to the past and wait for them to be drawn?

If they turn out differently then you didn't go into the future at all, but one of the Hollywood "other dimensions".
If it is KNOWN (and known is being used in the strictest sense here: a rational TRUE belief) what will happen then it cannot happen otherwise. If it did that means that the "knowledge" wasn't knowledge (because it wasn't true).


Knowledge of the future negates free will.

[Pincho Paxton]

Let's try the simple version.
If you go into the future and see the lottery numbers how can they turn out to be different when you back to the past and wait for them to be drawn?

If they turn out differently then you didn't go into the future at all, but one of the Hollywood "other dimensions".
If it is KNOWN (and known is being used in the strictest sense here: a rational TRUE belief) what will happen then it cannot happen otherwise. If it did that means that the "knowledge" wasn't knowledge (because it wasn't true).


Knowledge of the future negates free will.

You don't go back to the past because you already did that. You see everything that you did already as well.

[Dywyddyr]

You don't go back to the past because you already did that.

Again, irrelevant.

To you that future is a past, therefore fixed.

[Pincho Paxton]

Again, irrelevant.

To you that future is a past, therefore fixed.

It's not because God created the man already in the Free Will version. So God already created his past. That's why I put G at the end.

[Dywyddyr]

It's not because you created the man already in the Free Will version.

And again... a failure to address the question coupled with a simple repetition of the claim.

You have yet to show that free will is compatible with foreknowledge.
Your time loop fails: for the THIRD (at least) time because, as I have said, that future is the past to someone, and therefore fixed. You cannot go back and change the decision.

[Pincho Paxton]

And again... a failure to address the question coupled with a simple repetition of the claim.

You have yet to show that free will is compatible with foreknowledge.
Your time loop fails: for the THIRD (at least) time because, as I have said, that future is the past to someone, and therefore fixed. You cannot go back and change the decision.

yeah well you keep saying that, but it doesn't make sense. That's why I said use some form of example.

[Dywyddyr]

yeah well you keep saying that, but it doesn't make sense. That's why I said use some form of example.

Example WAS given - the lottery numbers.

Okay, let's the try the even simpler version (which has been posted but you appear to have ignored it).

If it is KNOWN (and known is being used in the strictest sense here: a rational TRUE belief) what will happen then it cannot happen otherwise. If it did that means that the "knowledge" wasn't knowledge (because it wasn't true).


If I know that X will happen (regardless of method) can X "not happen"?

One simple question: possible/ acceptable answers: Yes OR No.

[Pincho Paxton]

Example WAS given - the lottery numbers.

Okay, let's the try the even simpler version (which has been posted but you appear to have ignored it).

If it is KNOWN (and known is being used in the strictest sense here: a rational TRUE belief) what will happen then it cannot happen otherwise. If it did that means that the "knowledge" wasn't knowledge (because it wasn't true).


If I know that X will happen (regardless of method) can X "not happen"?

One simple question: possible/ acceptable answers: Yes OR No.

This part is in the future... so doesn't matter...
If it is KNOWN (and known is being used in the strictest sense here: a rational TRUE belief) what will happen then it cannot happen otherwise. If it did that means that the "knowledge" wasn't knowledge (because it wasn't true).

This already happened so doesn't matter....
If I know that X will happen (regardless of method) can X "not happen"?

So your question should be... If I travel to the future and know what happens.. should I bother going back to the beginning again?

If you don't go back to the beginning, you will just see no history of yourself.

It works better with God.