As you may well know, the SCIFI channel is going to broadcast a program about the alleged Kecksburg UFO crash in the 1960s. I had not heard much about this incident, although I read about it in Richard Dolan's excellent "UFOs and the National Security State". Having stated my opinion about Dolan's work overall, I have to say that Kecksburg, on the basis of information that Dolan himself provided, is one of the areas on which I disagreed with his approach. I felt that Dolan was a little too even handed on the issue of whether what crashed was the Soviet Satellite Kosmos 96. When I took a look at the artist's rendering of the Keckburg UFO, and then at a picture of the Cosmos 96, I thought there was really quite a resemblance. I don't have the respective images in front of me now, but I recall that each was reminiscent of the other, with the suggestion of the Acorn shape. While working on this post I did a google image search on the Cosmos 96 and have an image at the link. Clearly one can imagine "acorn" when looking at this. http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/cosmos96.jpg Now consider this chronology of events: 1. On November 23, 1965, the Soviet Union launches Cosmos 65. Cosmos was based on the Soyuz, which was in turn based on the diving bell design. 2. "Colonel Rodney S. Lusey, Deputy Chief of Staff, US Space Command, confirmed "A booster failure caused this satellite to decay after its launch. ...COSMOS 96 was launched on 23 November 1965 and decayed on December 9, 1965, at 51.8 north latitude and 85.2 west longitude"." (Ives here, I took this paragraph from another website). 3. In the late afternoon of 9 December, 1965, many people witnessed a large, orange coloured light in the sky above Lake Erie and several other locations to the north. Small lights were seen breaking away from the larger object and smoke reported as far away as the bordering New York State. The emergency services had been contacted with reports of an aircraft which was possibly in trouble and a Mrs Jones, from Mount Pleasant, reported that an object had crashed into woods near her home. (#3 also lifted from another site for speed purposes) 4. Witness later reports the crashed object to resemble an acorn. State police secure area, military takes over, object removed on flatbed with tarp. So. . . . . realizing that there were discrepancies in time, it seemed to me that human error, in how this satellite would have fallen, or some kind of other human mistake resulted in people thinking this wasn't the Cosmos 96 craft. Because otherwise, aren't we talking about one of the great all time coinicidences of the Universe? That on the same day, at nearly the same time that an acorn shaped Soviet satellite crashes in North America, that an acorn-shaped UFO also crashes in North America? Which is more likely? Human error in calculating how this couldn't be the Soviet craft, or that a UFO similarly shaped to the Soviet craft also happened to crash? Yet the CFI website, in taking about this program, has the following passage: ""I was able to eliminate that possibility by talking to the chief scientist for orbital debris at the NASA Johnson Space Center. His name is Nicholas Johnson, and he's one of the leading experts in the world on orbital debris and on the Russian space system." Kean said that Johnson told him there was "no way that any debris from Cosmos 96 could have landed in Pennsylvania" and that "no other man-made object from any country came down that day."" I went to Confluence.org and punched in the coordinates as given for the Cosmos reentry, and the results describe the location as "78.7 km (48.9 miles) NW of Mammamattawa, ON, Canada". It looks to me like Kecksburg and Mammamattawa are roughly 1000 miles apart. While a 1000 miles might sound like a great distance, I'm guessing it isn't considering the re-entry speed of a satellite. So based on all this, it would take some pretty compelling evidence to convince me that the UFO and the Soviet Cosmos aren't one and the same. Okay, and here's my "but" which I'm hoping some of you science/technical types can answer. What would this soviet craft look like after a fiery re-entry through the atmosphere? The witness found by described "writing" on a bumper like protrusion, that resembled "hieroglyphics". If this indeed was the Russian craft, would markings still be visible? I ran some of this by James Oberg, who, regardless of whether one agrees with him or not, is an expert on the Soviet space program. I was particularly interested in how this "Nicholas Johnson" could rule out Kosmos 96 as having fallen over Kecksburg. His reply: The 'elimination' of Kosmos-96 requires the assumption that the tracking data later released by the AF -- years later -- was accurate. The USAF was the very agency that, had it actually recovered Kosmos-96, would want to conceal that fact. If it had recovered the object, then the original authentic tracking data would easily show the satellite could indeed have landed in the right area at the right time, so the USAF obviously would not have released such data. Nobody else was in a position to verify the tracking data (the Soviets never released any data at all). He also stated: The tracking data released by the USAF is not consistent with the timing and location of a putative Kecksburg object. Johnson used that tracking data. My point is, if -- say -- the USAF had actually recovered K-96, but wanted the public record to hide that possibility, it would take about fifteen minutes to generate false tracking data and release it. I'm inclined to agree with Oberg, against my better judgement. It is a letdown that such an allegedly major "investigative" undertaking is going on for an incident with such an obvious prosaic explanation. Perhaps there is data of which I'm unaware. Does anyone here wish to defend Kecksburg as a genuine UFO?
Why would the sci-fi channel do doccumentary style programing, thats what I want to know. They have every reason to make it sensational, and not much motavation at all to provide a ballanced view of any topic that might inovlve aliens.
Calling Ivan Seeking Spymoose, I'm sure that SCIFI does this documentary style programming mostly to make money. An interesting side note is that SCIFI is owned by Vivendi, whicn in turn has merged with NBC, which is in turned owned by GE, one of our nation's major military defense contractors. One has to wonder how much serious journalism can be expected in areas of national security, from a defense contractor. Ivan, while doing some google work on Kecksburg, I found that you have posted on this incident before, on a board called psychic forums. I'd be interested to know if you ever followed up and formed an opinion on the matter. I've exchanged a few posts with James Oberg on the matter over at Whispers, and to my surprise he doesn't think it was Kosmos 96. I believe he thinks it was probably a meteor, and that the "acorn" shape stories appeared after locals had been shown images of Kosmos 96. Oberg has been asked about this incident by the press before, and I posted an article that quotes him as well. The story is gradually becoming of more interest to me, not because I believe it was a genuine UFO (I'm still leaning towards Kosmos 96) but because it shows how muddied the waters can quickly become when civilians who saw something, the military, NASA and UFO proponents all become involved. Oberg himself points out the possibility that UFO proponents may unwittingly be helping a coverup of something else, a possibility I've long considered about Roswell. Well, let me modify that a bit and say that Roswell serves usefully as a distraction from more intriguing information. It would be interesting to trace back and find the first mention of the acorn shape from witnesses who say that they actually saw the crashed object. I'd also like to know more about factors affecting the credibility of those witnesses. I'm sure it is enjoyable to have the press periodically come out and ask for interviews. . . . although I'm not ready to attack anyone for being a publicity hound with evidence of that. Its just a thought. Finally, I may have a little more time over the next week, and I plan on reviewing your posts regarding Malmstrom. I haven't forgotten, just been short on time.
One more thought the greater the credibility of witnesses that maintain that the military was involved, the more likely I consider this to be Kosmos 96. The greater the credibility that there was a flatbed truck taking something out, the more likely I believe it was Kosmos 96. If the military was there, but removed nothing with a flatbed, then the meteor theory stays on the table, since the military had good reason to at least suspect that any object crashing in the area could be Kosmos 96. Ah, so easy to piece these events back together 40 years later based on distant memories, military denials and no direct evidence.
Whitnesses identifynig an acorn shape, and kosmos 96 being acorn shaped dosnt explain anything for me. It couldnt have been kosmos could it? Satalites arnt exactly built like tanks, and even tanks cant withstand an uncontroled crash from an orbital level. If it was Kosmos wouldnt they have described scatered debries? but then, im not well versed on this incident, is there a good reason why the satalite would have retained its shape instead of turning into thousands of fragments when it hit the ground?
Ives, I don't know what came down in Pennslyvania on Dec. 9, 1965, but the Cosmos 96 does present some problems. The Cosmos 96 was only 3 feet in diameter and, as SpyMoose said, should have partially burned up during reentery and disintergrated upon impact, UNLESS the chutes did open to slow the descent. I suppose you read the eyewitness testimony from the fireman called to the scene, which is, of course, anecdotal and unprovable: " In 1990, Stan Gordon from the Pennsylvania Association for the Study of the Unexplained, traced an apparent first-hand witness. James Romansky recalled seeing the object on the ground some 25 years previously, when he was an 18 year old fire fighter, called on duty following concerns that an aeroplane had crashed. [Photograph of Cosmos 96 satellite] He described the object as bronze coloured and shaped like an acorn. Some 12 feet long and 25 feet in diameter, it had slightly raised "blunt" end and strange markings. "It had writing on it, not like your average writing, but more like ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. It had sort of a bumper on it, like a ribbon about six to 10 inches wide, and it stood out. It was elliptical the whole way around and the writing was on this bumper". "It's nothing like I've ever seen, and I'm an avid reader. I read a lot of books on Egypt, the Incas, Peruvians, Russians and I've never to this day come across anything that looked like that." ============================================= Nicholas Johnson, an internationally recognized authority on orbital debris at NASA, examined the orbital data for Cosmos 96. He was able to calculate that it would have passed over Pennslyvania at approximately 6:20 AM on that date, moving from north to south. the Kecksburg object came down at 4:45 pm. Johnson: "I can tell you categorically that there is no way that any debris from Cosmos 96 could have landed in Penn. anywhere around 4:45pm. That's an absolute. Orbital mechanics is very strict." The Kecksburg object was "reported" to have made turns and descended slowly. Could it be Cosmos 96 did descend on parachutes unseen by the witnesses and NASA had previously altered the orbital data before Johnson had examined it?
About 2130PM EST 24 October 2003: For almost 2 hours I have been watching a SciFi channel special telling about an alleged UFO incident in Kecksburg PA The incident occurred 9 December 1965. A search of the Web turned up many sites with articles describing to the event. None of the accounts seem to be more recent than about 1985. One account stated that the Associated Press published a story dated 10 December 1965 which reported that a meteor had landed. This account stated that the military later came to the same conclusion. The SciFi account as well as almost all of the articles from the Web search tell stories reminiscent of Roswell without any report of alien autopsies. The alien autopsy stories are likely to occur as the story get further embellished. I suppose that Roswell has run its course, and the media (or perhaps just the SciFi channel) needs a fresh story. Or perhaps it is merely the Kecksburg Chamber of Commerce initiating the topic after noticing that Roswell has made some money on their incident. There is some evidence at a few sites that Kecksburg (or some of its residents) have been trying to publicize the event for a while. There is a display of a replica of the object which crashed there. I think the miltary took the actual object and are hiding it somewhere.
Re: Calling Ivan Seeking For now I will say that I am leaning heavily towards Kosmos 96. I watched the show tonight but I need to spend some time reviewing the facts. Also, NASA just agree to release their documents on this. You've gotta watch out for that ole Sci Fi channel. I find them to be factual but slippery.
Unbelievably, I missed the show. Something tells me it will be on again. Ivan, I'll be interested to see your eventual interpretation of the information you have. For me, picking aspects of the UFO phenomenon to study is an exercise in priorities. I don't have that much time to spend on it, and an incident like Kecksburg seems to have at least 2 prosaic explanations that both seem more likely than anything else. Ivan, I would be interested in emailing with you about something. Would you please email me at Iveslewis@yahoo.com? Thanks.
Ives, I just checked the SciFi channels schedule and Kecksburg special is to be shown again tomorrow night, Tuesday Oct. 28 at 9pm ET/PT, right after the Roswell:Startling New Evidence repeat, or, I assume it's just a repeat of the original.
I thought the show was great.I like how some people saw the object make turns as it was falling.I hope in my lifetime something happens like this agian and they can't cover it up.You know what even if a ufo crashes in a mall parking lot they will roll in and take everything away and never let us speak to them if they lived.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I don't think this could have been a meteor due to the size reported and the damage indicated. A meteor of this size would have been much more energetic than was observed. Next, observers on site that night reported that the object had only compressed the earth about one inch. Again, this would seem to be inconsistent with the energy and momentum of a meteor strike. For comparison, one less-than-baseball sized meteor was observed to pass right through the trunk of a car on impact. One comment in the show that caught my attention was this: A gentleman who passed near the scene reported that he smelled rotten eggs. This makes me think of sulfur - and sulfuric acid from batteries reacting with other material after the crash. The consistent reports that the object crash-landed, rather than crashed, are quite striking to me. This would also seem to agree with the impact site reports. One suggestion that I ran across was that this object was connected to a parachute. Since it was dark, a chute may not have been visible. No reports of a parachute being found were mentioned. The quick presence by the military does seem striking - how many men and how soon they arrived is in question. It does seem that some military personnel did arrive quickly; I think they said in about an hour. At least 3 men were dispatched by a local base, but two witnesses reported seeing at least 75 soldiers searching the forest. I think only these two people reported seeing this many men. Consistent reports that place something like 10 to 20 military men on site was my impression; this of course includes the suits – The MIB! These men do exist; I have seen them at funerals. It does seem clear to me that something was taken from the woods by a military flatbed truck that night. On this point I was quite convinced by the testimony given. Even the most outspoken town skeptic appeared to concede this point in the end. To me, at this point anyway, Kosmos seems the only worldly explanation - in addition perhaps to a test being done by the military that has yet to be disclosed. One key question is how an object might glide, float, or tumble down to earth. A relatively large and light object might tumble in such a way as to account for the observations. Next, it is possible that the object tracked on RADAR had nothing to do with Kecksburg: There could have been an attached parachute burning as the object fell…perhaps this is why no chute was ever found. Also, we could have some kind of controlled flight device; some kind of high altitude balloon test could be involved. On the other hand, if the object at Kecksburg was the object tracked on RADAR, and if we consider a satellite that has undergone re-entry, we wouldn’t expect much to be left. Perhaps damage from re-entry enabled some aerodynamic characteristics that account for the flight path. So if, as it is argued, this could not have been Kosmos 96, and if this is indeed the object tracked on RADAR, and if this was not the work of the US military, then I start running out of explanations. Since the military presence was prompt, I would have to lean towards a US military test as the source of the mystery. A few questions come to mind: Does a mystery really exist around the death of the on-scene reporter? Was Kosmos 96 ever found? Was anything else ever found that could account for the RADAR tracks? We should have more information soon. In my interpretation of this, I do tend to dismiss the most exotic claims. Obviously some accounts strongly imply that ET dropped in on Keckburg that night. So I should mention one more problem: What screamed in the woods that night? Muuuuuuuaaaahhhhaaaaahhhhaaaahhhhhhaaaa
Here is an old interview about Kecksburg. Please see the 14th video from the bottom; left column. http://www.ufocasebook.com/videos.html
Seems the lawsuit against NASA may be filed soon. The Coalition for Freedom of Information thinks NASA was stonewalling in its recent release of info. SciFi channel has a new documentary titled "Kecksburg UFO: New Evidence" to broadcast Friday Nov. 21, at 9-11PM (ET/PT) It is to have new interviews and content about the info recently released by NASA. http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031119/nyw167_1.html
