Paul and Women's status

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Raha, Oct 3, 2003.

  1. Raha Registered Senior Member

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  3. Quigly ......................... ..... Registered Senior Member

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    Ephesians 1:20-23
    Ephesians 5:21-23
    Colossians1:14-22
    Revelations 21:2
    Revelations 3:12

    The above verses are a good picture of how marriage is and how a women should be to a man.

    Women should submit to a man as the church should submit to christ. Eve was created out of the side of man and should be cherished by man as something close to his heart. Adam slept and awoke, then God brought Eve to adam. Christ slept for three days and awoke. God knowing that it would take the sacrifice to create a bride for Christ. Christ is the head of the church as man is the head of woman. The church is the body of the head as women is the body of the man. Together coming together in agreement to be obedient to God. Christ connecting with the church to come into complete agreement to be obedient to God. How can a body detached from a head go to any goal? So in marriage man and woman come together in agreement to obey God. The church comes in agreement with Christ to obey God. Christ always points to God in everything.


    That is just my take on marriage from the Holy Bible.
     
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  5. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    I feel sorry for your wife (if you have one). Xian men are MCPs.
     
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  7. Raha Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry folks, but this thread was supposed to be about the article I provided link to. Did you read it?
    Meanwhile I've found another one, even more interesting about "Pauline" Christianity:

    http://www.dunedinmethodist.org.nz/bibl/paul.htm


    If authors of those two articles are right, than it was not Paul, who "distorted" Christ's teaching, but bunch of usually anonymous counterfeiters who distorted Paul's message about Christ.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2003
  8. Quigly ......................... ..... Registered Senior Member

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    Nothing in my post says anything negative about women does it? A women is the strength of a man. Behind every successful man is a powerful wife. I don't think you understand because you don't see how God made man the head and women the support, just like The Church is the body and Christ is the head. Christ will not let anything come against the Church, in the same way, I will not let anything come against my wife.

    yes I read it and I apologize for the commentary on marriage. I was not sure if you wanted comments regarding women in the bible or what. I will refrain from any more commentary aside from your links provided. Thanks!
     
  9. Flores Registered Senior Member

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    Just as I thought, christianity has no feet......Just a big head on a stick.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  10. Flores Registered Senior Member

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    Raha,
    There is no doubt in any muslim person mind that christianity was originally pure, uncorrupt, true, and part of the original message of calling to the one god. Muslim believe that Jesus, Abraham, Paul, Daniel, ect....were all Muslims. Muslims in the sense that they all submitted to the creator who some call father, god, Allah, ect. It's ONE freakin message for all, and I hope you realize that soon...perhaps before your 100 post birthday party.
     
  11. Raha Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks Flores, but I am and most most probably will remain an atheist. I am just deeply interested in history and development of religions (especially judeo/christian/islamic ones) as an very important phenomena. But only such thing like undeniable miracle would make me change my mind, I guess.
     
  12. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    You know, it really doesn't matter WHO distorted Jesus's teachings. The fact remains his teachings were corrupted. Most of the literature I've read places the blame on Paul. This is the first source that denies Paul wrote those things. Since your source is a Xian church, I don't put any trust in it, because they are picking and choosing what scripture they want to distort for their own personal agenda. The only consideration I would give to Bible scripture is the verbatim quotes of Jesus, but since he didn't write anything that we know of, and all his words were hearsay through Paul et al., there's no way to really know what Jesus taught if anything!
     
  13. Raha Registered Senior Member

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    I definitely agree with that.

    Well, for me it does. I want to know the truth. And if we are able to identify those "distortions" and "additions" and place them in proper time, then we might be able layer after layer uncover the original core of Christianity - maybe not "true Jesus teaching" (personally, I am more inclined to believe that JC is purely mythical person), but Christianity how it was at the very beginning. Then we would be able better understand how this religion evolved and how our culture evolved. In the end we would be able to better understand ourselves. Because we are all influenced by Christianity - believers and atheists alike.
     
  14. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Flores,

    So how did you come to that conclusion? Do you have any evidence, or did you simply make it up? You seem to be so damn sure of so many things, but you won't explain why..hmmm...

    JD

    PS: Oh yeah, answer my question about your "Working Model"
     
  15. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    Raha, I am with you. The truth is important to me, too. What I meant when I said "it doesn't matter WHO..." I was stressing the fact that JC's teachings WERE distorted. From everything I've read, and it's a lot, all fingers point to Paul since he did write most of the NT. The longer I read and learn from everyone on sciforums, the more atheistic I become, and the more I am beginning to believe JC's existence is also a myth. Learning how Xianity TRUTHFULLY evolved would give us some insight as to the culture of the time, the social ethics, the cumulative thought, and spiritual need, etc. When I started learning the truth about Xianity, I was in St. Peter's in Rome of all places! What you see is NOT what you get! I went to Rome as a devout Catholic. I left Rome a heretic. There is an overwhelming aura of evil in St. Peter's. At the high altar, I got chills up my spine and my skin crawled! It felt as if ants were crawling all over me. I was a good Catholic, never missed Mass. Taught junior and senior high catechism. Was on the parish council. I read everything there was to read in our church library. All Xian stuff, of course. I went to Rome on a pilgrimage with my church. I came back spiritually raped. I was in Pope John Paul II's first ever audience as Pope. I shook his hand. I don't believe he has an evil bone in his body. He's a good man and an honorable religious leader. He's done good in the world. It's the institution I despise. He was already caught up in the game for many, many years. He won't be with us much longer. The RCC has failed humanity. What's more, the promise of heaven that they preach may have worked when the human race was just an immature child who needed guidance. It's lost its purpose. Somehow the closest thing to heaven, I thought, was through the Catholic Church, but what I saw when I was there was the doorway to the devil. Yes, it was only in my imagination, but I went there a devout Catholic, excited to visit the heart of my faith, and that is where I lost it--among the beauty, the riches, the worldy goods, the relics, the masses of people who cannot think for themselves anymore. There's no free will there! Free will is just an illusion. It's just massive cult worshiping a dead rabbi and the myth created around him by story writers who never knew him. After seeing what I saw, I cannot call myself a "former Christian," or non-believer. I don't want to be associated with Xianity in the future, present OR past. For all those Xians out there who believe but have not seen, I will pray for their souls, because I have seen, and what I saw, and what I felt when I was there, was not the Spirit of God. Yes, I do get angry with Xians, and I have bashed a few in my day, because they refuse to listen. They're so blindly caught-up in their religious addiction that they refuse to see the truth when it spoon-fed to them. I'm not talking about any specific church here, I'm talking about ALL things Xian--the whole shebang is evil yet they blindly believe. The only thing I can relate it to is the Anti-Christ. If Jesus could see that which represents him on Earth, he would be the first to tell the world, "This is not my Father's house--it's the gates of Hell."
     
  16. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    Really? What evidence do you have to support this "fact"?
     
  17. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    What evidence do you have to support this as a fallacy?
     
  18. Raha Registered Senior Member

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    ConsequentAtheist - unless you realize what is the purpose of this forum, teach yourself some good manners and make yourself useful - can you please ignore this thread?
     
  19. Raha Registered Senior Member

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    Sometimes "number of fingers" does not matter. Today we know for sure that Paul did not write "most of NT". He wrote just 7 epistlest - maybe 8 - but not more. And even those were afterwards "improved" is also almost certain. For instance that antisemitic paragraph from I Thessalonians - that is evidently forgery.

    Well, I understand you, I think. It is not easy to abandon something what created an important part of your life (and of your world) for some time without emotions. Bitterness and anger are quite natural emotions in such case. But you are still "former Christian". I am also "former Christian" although I was raised as an atheist. But the impact of Christianity is so profound, that in most cases we just do not realize it. Christianity is part of our culture - Christian ethics, myths, laws, even language. We are all "former Christians". Is Christianity really that evil? Well, I do not know. There was definitely a lot of evil with Christianity, but how do we know that without it it would be better? There were similar "evils" before Christianity and non-Christian cultures does not appear to be much better. In every culture there is something good and something wrong. Hinduism has its caste system, ancient Rome was parasitic culture based on slave labour etc. Buddhism is - according to my opinion - closest to ideal, but even buddhims degenerated in many cases when its philosophy was replaced by mere idol worshipping.
    "Evil" is part of human nature. We are predators. So the only question is - can we change our nature? Nobody knows the answer, but statistical prognosis does not seem to be much optimistic.
     
  20. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    I Thessalonians
     
  21. Laser Eyes Registered Senior Member

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    I find it hard to believe that you could read the Bible on your own and come to this view unaided. In what Church did you learn this?
     
  22. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    This view is throughout the bible beginning with the God's bride Israel.

    We still don't know. There are some people who speculate that Paul's vision was so bad in latter years that he had a secretary write up the latter books. 1 Thessalonians 2:14 is not anti-semitic when understood in the proper context.

    This just shows your lack of reading of anything that is even somewhat accurate. The introduction to Paul's latter books in the St. Joseph edition of the bible gives a brief textual analysis and theories on who wrote them. I'm pretty sure the NIV version gives one at the beginning but I haven't checked up on it.
     
  23. Raha Registered Senior Member

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    What do you think about this:

    1 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus). They were not included in Marcion's canon of ten epistles assembled c. 140 CE. Against Wallace, there is no certain quotation of these epistles before Irenaeus c. 170 CE.

    Norman Perrin summarises four reasons that have lead critical scholarship to regard the pastorals as inauthentic (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 264-5):

    Vocabulary. While statistics are not always as meaningful as they may seem, of 848 words (excluding proper names) found in the Pastorals, 306 are not in the remainder of the Pauline corpus, even including the deutero-Pauline 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, and Ephesians. Of these 306 words, 175 do not occur elsewhere in the New Testament, while 211 are part of the general vocabulary of Christian writers of the second century. Indeed, the vocabulary of the Pastorals is closer to that of popular Hellenistic philosophy than it is to the vocabulary of Paul or the deutero-Pauline letters. Furthermore, the Pastorals use Pauline words ina non-Pauline sense: dikaios in Paul means "righteous" and here means "upright"; pistis, "faith," has become "the body of Christian faith"; and so on.
    Literary style. Paul writes a characteristically dynamic Greek, with dramatic arguments, emotional outbursts, and the introduction of real or imaginary opponents and partners in dialogue. The Pastorals are in a quiet meditative style, far more characteristic of Hebrews or 1 Peter, or even of literary Hellenistic Greek in general, than of the Corinthian correspondence or of Romans, to say nothing of Galatians.

    The situation of the apostle implied in the letters. Paul's situation as envisaged in the Pastorals can in no way be fitted into any reconstruction of Paul's life and work as we know it from the other letters or can deduce it from the Acts of the Apostles. If Paul wrote these letters, then he must have been released from his first Roman imprisonment and have traveled in the West. But such meager tradition as we have seems to be more a deduction of what must have happened from his plans as detailed in Romans than a reflection of known historical reality.

    The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter.


    ...Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved -- so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God's wrath has come upon them at last!

    Not antisemitic? What is the proper context than?
     

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