A Question for Christians

If we take a look at Revelations 2:9

I KNOW YOUR WORKS, AND TRIBULATION AND POVERTY, (BUT YOU ARE RICH) AND I KNOW THE BLASPHEMY OF THEM WHICH SAY THEY ARE YISRAIL AND ARE NOT, BUT ARE THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN

And Revelations 3:9

BEHOLD, I WILL MAKE THEM OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, WHICH SAY THEY ARE YISRAEL AND ARE NOT, BUT DO LIE, BEHOLD, I WILL MAKE THEM TO COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOUR FEET, AND TO KNOW THAT I HAVE LOVED YOU

My question : Who are the Israel imposers ? Could this perhaps be todays Israel ?

I believe it is , since the hijacking of the identity of Israel can be shown on more grounds than merely biblical .

1) There is only one group that has adapted the identity of Israel in modern times 55 years ago officially , this groups are the zionists who created the state of Israel .

2) Only 20% of todays Israel considers itself religious . The zionist groups that hyave created Israel and rule it today are not religious either . They are Goyim .

3) The state of Israel is against Torah in every possible aspect , Torah Judaism condemns zionism as not Jewish in any way and forms a group of peoples of comparable in ammount as zionist Israel .

4) more than half of todays Israel is Ashkenazic Jewish and has the most watered down (at the very least) ties with Hebrew Israelites in compare to all other Jews .

The question remains , can Revelations form an argument as well ?

Thank you kindly

 

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A much simpler and more relevant question would be, can religious dogma, whether Christian or Islamic, in any way, form an argument?

 

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There is no relevancy whatsoever regarding source , Islamic or Christian . Dogma is merely your opinion that you impose generalized over the entire religion , disregarding the issue at hand .

Cearly 4 other arguments that have nothing to do with Islam or Christianity point in the same direction , the dogma of Christianity or Islam has no relevancy whatsoever as you can see , when it comes down to the issue .

However there are peoples who consider themselves Christian , and them I have asked this question . You do understand Q that to a Christian , Christian dogmas have value .

 

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Ghassan

I doubt you could (or should) make such a conclusion from Revelation. It's a dangerous direction to go since it is this type of thinking that usually only serves racism and discrimination. Using Scripture as a selfish and political tool is exactly what the "synagogue of Satan" is accused of doing.

The Jews (Yisrael) are those people (chosen by God), who submit to and keep God's Law (1), and belong to the descendents of Israel by circumcision (2). Remember that Revelation concerns Christ's new kingdom, which isn't limited to Jews, but includes anybody who accepts his guilt under God's justice. The traditional gap was breached by Jesus when he died as King of the Jews, and opened the gates of His kingdom to everybody.

Through Christ anybody can belong to the "12 tribes of Israel" (the figurative 144 000). It does not matter anymore whether you are a true descendent of Israel or not, because Christ is the fulfilment of the Law (1) - (see Paul's explanation in Romans) and anybody who is circumcised (2) in his heart (who flees from sin and has faith in God) can belong to God's kingdom.

The points you mention above only makes it clear that the earthly kingdom is fading away. The temple was destroyed, but Jesus rebuilt it with his resurrection. There aren't any prophets, kings or priests of Israel who carry God's covenant anymore. All these were embodied by Christ and exist with God now. Zion, the mountian of God, is now the body of believers - each with his own body to represent the temple and God's presence on earth. Since "All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away" (Dan. 9:11) Christ has taken up Israel's identity and restored God's rulership over it (you will remember that Saul was only anointed as king because the people wanted one). The nation of Israel does not belong to people or human kings anymore.

To answer your question. The Israel impostors in the passage is anybody who pretends to be Christian or Jew but does not repent by admitting their guilt and accept their need for a Saviour. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." It has nothing to do with purity of race, creed or position. Using Revelation would actually damage your case.

 

That was very informative Jenyar , thank you .

I dont see any problems with discrimination based on nationalism and since there is no race of Yisrael there can be no existance of any racism .

I agree it can be used for racial purposes , but as I have put it , it can merely result in national discrimination . There is no race of Yisrael .

I dont see an issue when scripture has political means , I only see an issue when scripture is used foe unrighteous political ends .

And I dont see how it is used selfish , it is used aimed at a nationality and has little with any personal benefit .

Also , doing Satans work does not make you Satan . Satan would exist independantly of your effords .

So then Jews do no longer exist to be distinguished in the bible ? Christian Zionism uses (!) this distinguishment as an argument to conquest Eretz Yisroel and occupy it in order for the Messiah to come . This they base on prophetic fulfillment of Eretz Yisrael to be Jewish land , and thus propagate a Jewish expansionalist state .

You however then are telling me we should not take matters literal as they do , but understand Yisrael is a spiritual unit that includes Christians , according to Christian prophecy ?

So there is no longer a Jewish peoples within Christian prophecy ?

So now there is clear distinguishment between the religion of Judaism and Zion , correct ?

How does this explain itself in the second coming ?

I would agree with your way of interperting , but my question does not base itself on weither Zionists are Yisrael , it relies on those who are not Yisrael and claim to be so .

Do the words "I am Israel" not matter in any sense ?

 

Yisrael are commonly called "Jews".

As I said - the only nationality scripture is concerned with establishing is a nation of people faithful to God. To use it for any other ends is "unrighteous".

Satan and his work is indistinguishable. When your own will opposes God's will there is no difference between Satan's work and yours.

Mark 8:33
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Christians believe Jesus was the Messiah. So the Messiah already came. I don't know enough about the political situation in Eretz Yisrael to talk about it, but Christians do not have to occupy any place.

Yes of course there is. But if they don't accept Jesus as the messiah, their salvation will have to come by following the Law of Moses.

It's a subtle distinction, more a fulfilment of the prophecy.

Psalm 2:6
"I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill."
Psalm 14:7
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

The messiah established a spiritual Israel and a spiritual Zion that is based on the earthly one, but forms part of the new Jerusalem spoken about in Revelation.

Isaiah 28:16
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.
17 I will make justice the measuring line
and righteousness the plumb line;

I'm sure it matters in a political sense, but basing it upon Scripture might be misguided - especially on Christian scripture. It is not for the nation of Israel to decide who belongs to it, but for God:

Isaiah 51:16
I have put my words in your mouth and covered you with the shadow of my hand- I who set the heavens in place, who laid the foundations of the earth, and who say to Zion, 'You are my people.' "

 

It could just as easily be the Arabs who say they belong to the land of Israel when they do not! Who has had more tribulation than the jews under the holocaust? Israel as a jewish state is here to stay, so deal with it. Arabs didn't care what they had or what to do with it till it was gone. Now they need an enemy to define themselves. Perhaps Islam is the Synagogue of Satan?

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Spidergoat,
Arabs never said they are Yisrael. The synagoges of Satan are prescribed for people that will claim to be Israel. Please refrain from the emotional insults and stay civilized with the topic.

In case you forgot, we are questioning a specific biblical verse on the Israel imposter race. We are not questioning the Quran or muslims here, although I'm sure that those are the only things you desire to question.

 

Goat :

It could just as easily be the Arabs who say they belong to the land of Israel when they do not!

So what to do then with Arab Jews ? Or Arab Christians ?

Keep your pathetic ignorance to yourself .

Who has had more tribulation than the jews under the holocaust?

I was not talking about all Jewish peoples , but of the state who has officialy declared itself to be Israel and speak the language of Israel .

You take all sorts of peoples together and make them Jews as an entity under the state , but no Yemeni Jew or Ethiopian Jew suffered from the holocaust .

Interestingly enough zionism has not suffered from any holocaust one bit , it was mostly Polish and especially Chassidic Jewry and Yiddish culture that suffered from the holocaust . Neither was something a zionist admired , instead he considered those sufferers to have been filthy pigs and dogs .

Please dont confuse matters , the state of Israel that has declared itself Israel has suffered SHIT . It should thank her devil friend Hitler instead . Tratory and self-destruction is what created Israel .

They have never been in any position to hijack the identity of the Yiddish sufferer of the holocaust .

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27665

But if you and your phony identity want to play the who suffered most game , how about them NIGGERS ? How about them native Americans ? How about all the colonized peoples of all colonized regions in this world , of which Palestinians are one of .

5 Million Christian Orthodox Russian peasents were starved and murdered by Stalin in just 1 year

How do you even dare to claim humanity's great suffering ?

Israel as a jewish state is here to stay, so deal with it.

Keep on telling yourself empires last . History proves you wrong and so will the future . Arabic culture and Islamic religion wont die out , a political aspiration as zionism is will .

didn't care what they had or what to do with it till it was gone.

The Arabs who lived there , Christian Muslim and Jew , did . That they dont wish to make some vomit inducing devil city like Tel Aviv does not equal to not caring . By your standards nobody who lives a non-western cultural life doesnt care . Aside of this the Arabs didnt rule that land , the Ottomans did .

Now they need an enemy to define themselves.

Arabic and Islamic definition has little to do with some 55 year old state . Hebrew Israelite national identity does .

A peoples so lost that they need to dig up ancient identity's to feel dignified . SHould we turn into Babylonians ? SHould we revive Kemet and Persia and should the Roman empire start kicking your pseudo-Hebrew asses again ?

Perhaps Islam is the Synagogue of Satan?

And thanks for showing the exact difference between my position and your "joke" . You call a religion , a peoples of 1.3 B who have nothing to do with anything the synagogue of Satan , while I point to a STATE , a political identity .

 

Im affraid they have some competition for the last 55 years .

But I do understand the problems you speak of , its clearly as spidergoat showed us .

But I dinsguish , as do many Jews , between the zionist state and its pseudo-religious inhabitants , and the peoples of spiritual Israel that call themselves Jewish .

So we can conclude that this zionist establishment in the land of Israel , is unrighteous as it is used for other ends than that of the faithfull to God , according to a Christian perspective .

If we remain in this Christian perspective , and disregard Islam , we see that they have driven out and occupy hundreds of thousands peoples who were/are faithfull to God , Christians .

I believe this would reflect the "other ends" , no ?

Evangelist Christians argue that Jews should occupy the biblical land in order to engage in the second coming of Jesus Christ .

But how exactly do Jews come in this picture , that was basically my point . Since Israel as you say refers to a spiritual entity that includes Christianity , how does Judaism distinguish itself ?

The main point is who exactly has its fortune restored , who rejoices and who is glad ?

My assertion was that this political sense has been prophesized in the scriptures .

Exactly as the scriptures say , there will be those who will call themselves Israel when they are not . The political reality that has developped over the last 100 years (zionism is a 100 years old) in which the Hebrew language has been revived , together with a Hebrew Israelite flag , and the declaration of the state of Israel , reflects this prophecy literally .

How can this be disregarded ?

 

ok, I'll address this more carefully...

You seem to be suggesting that the meaning of this scripture is that those who now call themselves Israelis have not suffered tribulation or poverty and furthermore, have no right to the land of Israel and are in fact in league with the devil. Then you thank us kindly for considering it. Gee, I'm sorry for taking any offence.

I suggest that Israelis could fit this description, but Palestinians (who are mostly but not all arabs and islamic) could also since they claim Israel is theirs. However Palestinians never suffered the tribulation (and poverty) of the holocaust, although they have suffered, so this passage seems more likely to fit them. I know of at least one Israeli who still lives with the memory of the holocaust, my aunt, and there are many more who sought refuge there.

This passage does't seem to add anything futher, just that there are people who say they have a right to Israel, but do not. Again, either side could fit this description. Anyone who says they are Israeli, past, present or future would come under the suspicion of this passage, so in the end it is meaningless.

Futhermore, identity exists only in the mind and only serves to divide the people of earth from each other, we are better off without it. The fact that there are christian and jewish arabs accentuates my point, that identity is an illusion. Religion is a word virus, infecting the mind with rigid systems of thought and perpetuating itself with false hope and insane violent logic. Personally, I think founding a jewish state of Israel was a bad idea, better for them to settle in Texas or something.

 

1) Their suffering is relatively small enough to be irrelevant .

2) Those who came not from the land but from afar to colonize it have no right regarding the land whatsoever .

3) I dont believe in any devils other then the living ones many Israeli can consider themselves part of .

Who is us ? You shouldnt be sorry for what you cant help . Incompetence is nothing to be ashamed of .

So did their ancestors and those before them , they have been doing so forever , but never called themselves Israel or the chosen people of God that has any right to that land . That lived there as a German would live in Germany .

They , unlike the Israeli , did not actively go and take a land that is claimed . They did not create an official nation out of it , instead they have been occupied and invaded by alien forces
since its very beginning .

Zionists didnt even suffer any holocaust , most peoples who have suffered the holocaust , any holocaust , are now dead .

700.000 from 6 Million peoples . From America , what a holocaust they must have suffered . Yes there have been refugees , yes some have suffered , but not all suffered the holocaust . Zionist goal was to represent world Jewry in which they still didnt succeed this very day .

To acchieve such , Zionists actively cooperated untill 1942 within Germany as in the Palestinian underground with the Nazi's , it was not the holocaust that has caused Israel , it was Zionism that caused the holocaust , together with the Nazi's .

Israel , as a political entity , as a peoples (we are 60 years further) , could not even compete with the suffering inflicted on the Palestinian peoples , done to them by zionists as well as Arabs .

Going to disco's is not suffering . Having lived all your life in a refugeecamp is .

Tell me who exactly suffered more ? The holocaust generation is almost gone , todays generations are western consumers .

Bullits hurt more than memories , give me a break please . Did your aunt rot on the streets in Poland when her Israel denied financial support ........ selling it of as some greedy demand OstYuden always have .

Most Israeli werent in Hungaria sold out by her Israel for 600 measely zionist fighters , while she could have fled to Romania if she was helped .

Most Israeli havent been told to dress up as if its a holiday and step aboard the train by some Ordnungsdienst , coincidently zionist officer while ending up deported and chocking in Auswitz .

Nomatter how hard your aunt may have suffered , she is in no position to reflect her suffering upon an entire peoples , Israel the state may include sufferers , but they do not represent any serious suffering as a peoples .

How about the most suffering group of all ? How about the Chassidics ? And even today almost all of them refuse your beloved Israel , and make no part of its identity .

If I convert today , I can be a Hebrew conquestadores tomorrow ?

What suffering is that ?

There are somany groups that call themselves Israel , there are white-supremacist groups , there are the Black Israelite groups , there are the Raelians who want an embassy in Jerusalem , there are plenty of groups that consider themselves righteous to own the land .

However only one group , Israel as a state (even more than Jews) stands out amongst them as the greatest , most influential and most relevant one .

I can call myself Israel tomorrow , what impact does that half on a global event , clearly that is what scriptures respresent is it not ?

Why would scriptures point to meaningless groups , while ignoring the hyper-military strongest nation in the ME , that calls itself Israel as a state , that is known by almost everybody around the world who knows geography , as Israel the state .

There are more peoples who know of Israel as a state than peoples who know Israel as the Jewish peoples . It is clearly that in todays reality it is the state of Israel that has most potential to represent the claim for Israel as described in the scriptures .

Clearly the state isnt the true peoples of Israel .

Argentina and Uganda were competing choices , however when as Heburaim nationalism rose the land of Israel was inevitably their choice , completely irrelevant of the purpose for refugeesettlement .

 

You're still exhibiting a rather intense bigotry Ghassan. Why don't you stuff it where it belongs? There is enough blame to go around on this one. Passing any one group off as innocent victims is spurious at best.

So it's okay as long as it serves your purposes? (Note: interesting Freudian slip there btw.)

And the Arab leaders agreed to fight the Ottomans and allow a Jewish state in Palestine in return for their freedom from the British. The Zionist movement began well before WWII in response to increasing anti-Semitic hostility in Europe. It was not caused by the holocaust, merely interrupted by WWII.

~Raithere

 

Bullshit man , when one group comes in over the backs of their own peoples , ethnic cleanses the region from its natives and keeps on expanding the matters are clear .

Call me bigot all u want , but unless you can show me how hundreds of thousands expelled and chased away peoples are not innocent in this question , you are the one suffering from bigotry not me .

It is not depending on the person but rather on the purpose , however you missed my point . Scriptures themselves include politics , to use such for political purposes then only serves their purpose .

Im sorry but noone agreed with a Jewish state , furthermore since we are all such democracy lovers when it suiths us , no peoples in Palestine who inhabited the area agreed with a foreign state .

Nobody is claiming it began after ww2 or that is was caused by the holocaust .

The development of zionism was paralel with the development of anti-semitism and untill 1942 zionism was the best friend of the anti-semtic regimes .

It cannot be done away just because of the Dreyfuss fairytales , if that is what you would be referring to .

Take a look at its anti-semitic roots , and for the occasion let me use the words that zionists describe Jewry with :

gypsies, filthy dogs, inhuman; parasites, people fundamentally useless; slaves, helots, worms, filth, rootless parasites

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=426288#post426288