Born again?`

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Medicine*Woman, Sep 25, 2003.

  1. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    "I say to you, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" ~ Matthew 3:3

    Born again means exactly that, reincarnated, born again in physical form.
     
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  3. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    Such touching certainty:
    1. Not Matthew 3:3 but John 3:3
    2. The NET Bible notes: The word a[nwqen (anwqen) has a double meaning, as pointed out by Z. C. Hodges ("Water and Spirit: John 3:5" BSac 135 [1978]: 206-20). The word may mean either "again" (in which case it is synonymous with palivn [palin]) or "from above" (BAGD 77 s.v. a[nwqen). This is a favorite technique of the author of the Fourth Gospel, and it is lost in almost all translations at this point. John uses the word 5 times, in 3:3, 7; 3:31; 19:11 and 23. In the latter 3 cases the context makes clear that it means "from above."
    3. Young's Literal Translation also reads "born from above"
    Better luck next time.

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  5. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    From above?

    ----------
    My error, it is found in the Gospel of John. First, we really don't know WHO wrote the fourth Gospel. So if the author meant "born from above," I would ask, where does "above" mean to him? We don't know. So, if you are implying "above" to mean "heaven" as in a "spiritual realm," this was my point exactly.
     
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  7. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    Re: From above?

    From "born again means exactly ..." to "we don't know" to "this was my point exactly".

    Thanks for the insight.
     
  8. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    Re: Re: From above?

    You are purposefully confusing the issues in order to say something snide and sarcastic when you knew exactly what I meant in my post.
     
  9. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Re: From above?

    On the contrary, I assumed that (a) you meant to suggest Biblical support for the doctrine of reincarnation, (b) you screwed up the source, (c) you were unaware of the variant translations, and (d) you are now dancing around in an effort to conceil this somewhat pervasive confusion. Have I missed anything?
     
  10. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: From above?

    I'm not dancing around anything. You are the one conceiling your obvious confusion tactics to make everyone else look less learned than you. Doesn't work for me though. I admit it when I make a mistake, but you sure don't. You misspelled "charity" in your last post. Unfortunately, you've missed a lot. By the way, I would almost NEVER suggest Biblical "support" for a question like reincarnation, and I'm sure you know this by now. You're the one dancing, my friend. You'll do anything to get attention, even to feed off of other people's posts to pretend like you know all the answers. Your posts just don't favorably reflect your intellect, if you have one.
     
  11. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: From above?

    Whether you think I have an intellect or not is entirely you choice, but neither option serves to clarify the intent of your opening post. If the intent was not to assert Biblical support for reincarnation, what was it's intent?
     
  12. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: From above?

    You know very well that Xians believe "born again" means in the Holy Spirit. They believe in baptism by water (dunking or sprinkling) and then "born again" with the fire of the Holy Spirit. You do understand, don't you, that I am not a Xian nor supporter of the Bible. I was explaining what I thought this statement to mean. Surprisingly, no Xians refuted it on the forum. The Xians I know don't believe in reincarnation. Where it says in the Bible "born of water," I don't believe that means baptism but being born onto the Earth as a human being (in amniotic fluid).
     
  13. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Real quick before I log out.
    One:
    It seems that the Christian practice of baptism by water was not ordained by the bible but by the Didache:


    "Now concerning baptism, baptize as follows: after you have reviewed all these things, baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" in running water. But if you have no running water, then baptize in some other water; and if you are not able to baptize in cold water, then do so in warm. But if you have niether, then pour water on the head three times "in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit." And before baptism, let the one who is to be baptized fast, as well as any others who are able. Also, you must instruct the one who is to be baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.[1]"

    and the practice of dipping babies or adults in water as a sign of being born again is not exlusive to Christianity. The practice dates back to Egypt, Asia Minor, Africa and even ancient Greece where I remember reading that the argonauts crawled beneath Circe's legs to signify they were being born again.

    Two:
    Muhahahaha.....................touche.

    Three:
    If I read another Xians out of you miss medicine woman I'm going to slap the mess out of you.
     
  14. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    One: I knew that.

    Three: I'll call them whatever I want to call them. You're just showing your ignorance about the term "Xians". Look it up on the Internet, Fuckhead.
     
  15. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: From above?

    One word: Mikveh.
     
  16. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

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    She said it again

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  17. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    Medicine*Woman,

    I intended to answer earlier, but I did not want to get involved in the ensuing pillowfight.

    The practice of baptism certainly did not come from Jesus or his disciples. It precedes both with John the baptist - and we know that the Bible also mentions people who "baptised for the dead".

    Matthew 21
    25John's baptism--where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?"
    26They discussed it among themselves and said, "If we say, 'From heaven,' he will ask, 'Then why didn't you believe him?' But if we say, 'From men'--we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet."

    Jesus implied that his authority came from the same place as John's. John was the man who "paved the way" for Jesus.

    Mark 1:4 and elsewhere:
    And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

    This is significant because it distinguishes between the Old and the New convenant (basically the Old and the New Testament). We are told of a learned Jew from Alexandria named Apollos who "taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John." (Acts 18)
    ______________

    The question about being born again is answered directly after John 3:3 - I will post it here for convenience:

    4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
    5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

    We find a further explantion in 1 Peter 1:

    22Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
    "All men are like grass,
    and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
    the grass withers and the flowers fall,
    25but the word of the Lord stands forever."
    And this is the word that was preached to you.


    It is abundantly clear that it cannot mean reincarnation - in fact it means specifically not reincarnation. The key here is the Holy Spirit - being born again or baptism has no meaning if you don't understand what the Spirit does.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2003
  18. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    xians

    yes, the word xians is annoying, at first I thought it was some alien cult or something, until I thought of x-mas, is it so hard to write out Christians?

    anyway, I think the meaning of born again is a description of a religious revelation. When such an ecstasy happens it can truly feel like you are reborn. So the meaning of Mathew 3:3 might be that we don't just adopt christian ideas and casually fit them into our lives, but that the gospel is meant to revolutionize your mind, to change your point of view radically.

    peace
     
  19. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Xedicine Xoman:
    Then why the thread? If you were implying that xians xians xians xiansxians xiansxians xiansxians xians XiaNS xians xians xians
    should adopt the Eastern idealims of reincarnation then knowing what you claim to know (ha) should have kept you from putting your foot in your mouth.

    Your stab in the dark was just that, missy.

    No, dear. I'm showing my rights to being annoyed at an old hag that's got this place littered with her pet word 'xians' like godammned roaches.
    So.....xuck xou.

    I dare anyone here to look up her posts and get blasted by a shitload of xians.

    Jenyar:
    True enough. The xian xian xian xian xian XIAN X-I-A-N snot Paul still came out claiming that no work could be done to earn salvation.

    Either way, its not holy scripture that ritualized baptism but the supposed teaching of diciples years after. How all this ties into reincarnation is nothing long of the old hag stuffing her foot in her mouth.

    Dr. Lou:
    ::Cringing::

    No shit. But I've got her in a chokehold.
     
  20. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    You don't have me at all. You won't live long enough. Do you think for one second I'm going to stop writing and using words or abbreviations that may offend YOU? It's YOUR problem. Deal with it. Since my writing style bothers you, you don't need to read my posts. The truth hurts, doesn't it? You're caught up in YOUR addiction!

    For the record, I am not opposed to Eastern thought, but I have neither implied nor encouraged anyone to accept Eastern idealisms or any other organized religion. I doubt that my understanding of reincarnation is the same as in Eastern thought. They believe in one soul per one body. I believe in the ONE Spirit of God that dwells within the entire human race. There's a big difference, but as a XIAN, you wouldn't understand it.

    You are showing your ignorance about the abbreviation of "Xian." You can look on the Internet and see that I'm not the only writer who uses it. Books are even being published using the term "Xian," and not as an abbreviation. How are YOU going to change the world when you're addicted to a lie?

    Calling me an "old hag" is a compliment. "Old hag" means the same thing as "crone" as in Maiden, Mother, Crone, the three faces of womanhood (the trinity I believe in). In Native American lore, she is called "Medicine Woman," so thank you for the compliment.

    My feet are still on the ground. Where's yours?
     
  21. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    An interesting website

    BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS

    Many times you will run across a Christian, especially a “Born Again” who will not listen to reason and will not even enter a debate with you. He will make the silly claim that all you need is “faith”, meaning knowledge is not important. How many times have you heard them say they have this faith because they saw Jesus and Jesus told them this. My question to them is; “How can they know it was Jesus they saw and not Paul, or Constantine, or anyone, even Moses?

    If you can get a “Born Again” to focus, ask him if he believes everything in the New TESTament is true and inspired by God Himself. Most likely he will say yes indeed. Then ask him if he believes what Matthew wrote and does he agree with Matthew.

    Matthew 5 (KJV)
    39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

    Ask this “Born Again” if he would sit still while his mother, father, sister, brother, wife or husband was being injured, “smite”, or even murdered? If he says yes he would not resist, they you tell him you have no respect for him or his religion.

    One of the reasons why the Arabs did not throw Israel into the sea in 1948 was not because the Jews turned the other cheek, but because they didn't turn the other cheek. They fought back! The attacker will not smite you on the cheek because he knows what's going to happen if he does. A Rabbi once said: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely then it is also true weakness corrupts absolutely. If you want to be right - be strong because if you are weak you are not righteous. Being weak only encourages the wicked to attack and display his wickedness. In other words, you are encouraging someone to be bad.

    Judaism does not believe in “resisting evil”. Leviticus clearly says; “You shall not stand aside while your fellow’s blood is shed – I am God, your Lord”. (Leviticus 19:16) Rashi explains that if someone’s life is in danger, you must try to save him. Although one is not required to endanger his own life to save another, he should not be overly protective of his own safety.

    Because of Christianity, so much evil have emerged because they did not resist evil! Then, if this “Born Again” is still around, ask him for money, or his car, or the clothes on his back – if he refuses, ask him why, if he was a true “Born Again” he would go out of his way to give to you, because he would be following Matthew: When they look at you in surprise – say to them – don’t you follow Jesus’ teachings? Jesus said “Give to him that asks – Give to every man that asks, and don’t expect it back:

    Matthew 5 (KJV)
    42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

    Ask this “Born Again” why his religion of love ignores one of the basic moral obligations in Judaism.

    Matthew 8 (KJV)
    21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
    22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

    In Judaism, the mourner has a sacred obligation devolves upon every Jew -- no matter his relationship to the deceased or to those mourning -- to comfort the survivors -- these being father, mother, wife (or husband), son, daughter, (married or unmarried), brother, and sister (or half-brother and half-sister) of the deceased.

    In Judaism, exercising compassion by paying a condolence call is a mitzvah, considered by some of our greatest scholars to be biblically ordained. It is a person's duty to imitate God: as God comforts the bereaved, so man must do likewise. The fundamental purpose of the condolence call during shivah is to relieve the mourner of the intolerable burden of intense loneliness.

    At no other time is a human being more in need of such comradeship. The inner freezing that came with the death of his relative now begins to thaw.

    Jesus destroyed the moral fiber of the humane way of dealing with the death of a parent.

    Ask this Born Again why Jesus broke other God’s Laws;

    Leviticus 19:17 says not to hate your fellow Jews
    Leviticus 19:17 says not to embarrass others
    Leviticus 19:17 says not to speak derogatorily of others
    Leviticus 25:17 says not to insult or harm anybody with words

    Finally ask the Born Again – why are you really proud of your religion that is based upon paganism since it incorporated the worship of a demigod, use blood ceremonies, belief in virgins, and most important – condemning any and all righteous people to hell just for not believing in Jesus.

    http://www.jdstone.org/truth
     
  22. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    4,779
    Medicine Woman:
    Getting licked by a loving serf.

    Not all do, however. Hindu theologies differ from the the oriental ones like Chinese, while others have corrupted to what is now Shintoism or modern day pagan imitations.

    Pause.

    You know, dear, I still don't get the point of this thread.
    Hegel called it the noumenal world, I believe. Shopenheaur said the same thing when he hit up on Buddhism. Spinoza wrote the same sappy bullshatta you are. I don't have to be a xian xian XIAN x-ia-n to understand any of it.

    I'm not even spiritual, senora estupida.

    Moooo. You're the only chump I've ever seen abuse the shit out of it. For all I know you could be fingering yourself and o-g'ing everytime that you read it.

    Reminds me of this psudo I knew once who liked to throw the word "chagrin" around. Made him interestingly, intellectually, philosophically annoying.

    My being fantastico and quite possibly the brightest female alive is not a lie. The world's a shithole and I like it that way so don't expect me at a food drive trying to change anything.....vieja estupida.

    No problem. You're also what the Mexicans call "sangrona". Look it up.
     
  23. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    2,669
    The didache was discovered again in the 1200's I think. Baptism is part of the christian tradition but it is also mentioned in the gospel. Specifically at the end of Mathew, Acts, and the letters of Paul.

    Well to this I agree. "Knowledge only puffs up pride but love edifies." (Paul)

    There's self-defence and revenge. Know the difference.

    Jesus is using an example. It is similar to the one given at the end of the resurrection account given in Luke "Don't look for the living among the dead."
     

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