"Josephus," Paul's pen name?

Has anyone else read that Paul wrote under the pseudonym of Josephus?

 

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What do you think, and why?

 

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Paul's pen name

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I'm inclined to believe he did, because he was a fraud.

 

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Re: Paul's pen name

Then you should supply (a) the evidence proving him to be a fraud, a (b) the logic that suggests that a fraudulent Paul is evidence of the hand of Josephus, plus statistical evidence relating to word usage and writing styles. Otherwise, you prove yourself to be little more than some conspiricist fruitloop eagerly embracing whatever fringe theory comes your way.

 

Why do you hate poor Paul so much, MW?

 

Hmmm ....

M*W: I'm having trouble finding source material for research on the question.

However, Raha, I'll offer this opinion: The Pauline Evangelism is approximately what's wrong with Christianity. The most divisive aspects of Christian faith in modern America do not come from Christ, but from Christians interpreting (A) the Old Testament, and (B) the Pauline Evangelism.

Paul is the source of modern sexism, homophobia, and snotty elitism among Christians. And those are still strong issues today.

 

Hating Paul?

He's the CAUSE of Xianity. Xians believe the lies he perpetuated. They STILL believe them today! That's why there are so many robotic Xians out there who cannot think for themselves, yet still believe the only way to reach enlightenment (get into heaven) is by believing Jesus is their savior. I don't like liars, especially when they are sainted and extolled to the heavens leaving mere humans believing in a salvation that will never come.

 

Re: Hating Paul?

So, do you also hate Josephus? And what of Ezra? And your Egyptian Moses-construct, do you hate him as well?

Sadly, you seem far more willing to hate than research.

 

Re: Re: Hating Paul?

Don't put words in my mouth, CA. I never said the word "hate." The question was posed to me with the word "hate" in it. Either you don't read correctly or you're just attempting another misquote to stir up shit. I personally don't hate anyone past, present or future. I have contempt for liars which I'm beginning to believe you are one of them. It seems of all the posts, you are the one who is using the "hate" word the most! But, then, I'm not surprised because you are a very hateful person. How could I hate someone that I never knew? How and why should I hate a historian? I don't know anything about Ezra, so I have no opinion on him. The Egyptian "Moses-construct" is not mine. I've read it in several books. It's a theory. I don't know if it is true or not. I don't care. It doesn't change anything because there is "synchronicity in the universe." "There are no accidents." No, CA, it is YOU who are far more willing to hate than to research. Everyone of your posts proves it.

 

Re: Re: Re: Hating Paul?

Q) "Why do you hate poor Paul so much, MW?"
A) "He's the CAUSE of Xianity."

To assert that I am putting words in your mouth is absurd. To suggest that I am being intentionally dishonest is simply paranoid.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Hating Paul?

You're the one who's paranoid. Your hateful presence is proof of it.

 

Flavius Josephus was a younger contemporary of Paul's. He was an avid Jewish historian who wrote of the antiquities of his culture, the revolt of his people against the Romans, an autobiography, and other miscellaneous pieces.

He was once the quintessential source of information on the Judean state of affairs of the First century of the Common Era, and was widely read during the Renaissance. Like Paul, he was once a member of the Judaic pontifical elite, a Pharisee, in fact, and later dwelt in Rome.
His works were written in Greek, and it is thought that Paul was also very well-versed in this language.

Here's a source:
Flavius Josephus

This seems to be as close as it gets, MW.

 

ConsequentAtheist

As one who has been around this site for several years, as one who has penned 7.100 posts, I say yes, you are putting words in M*W's mouth.

After a while, there is a choice: answer the damn question or keep splitting hairs. As one who has spent hours, even days splitting hairs, I can tell you that splitting the hair of Raha's use of the word "hate" would lead us down a merry digression that would bury the central topic.

Of course, I wonder why you're afraid of the topic in the first place.

 

There is also this, albeit with regards to Luke rather than Paul. Parenthetically, another Josephus resource can be found here.

 

That is very interesting. Thank you, CA.

On this topic, is not the Gospel of Luke significantly longer than the others, it having been, perhaps, beefed up for the appearance of historical fact?
This document proposes this, but it does not say if it Luke actually the longest. I will go check the text itself.

 

According to what I have read, Josephus doesnt mention Jesus. Now wouldnt you expect him to do so if he was Paul? Yet there is no mention of Jesus and the new testament events in Josephusus writings, which makes said events somewhat suspect.

 

Josephus

Thank you for your intelligently researched response.

 

Re: ConsequentAtheist

I respect your opinion and will give it further consideration.

You will forgive me, however, if I find this comment unworthy of respect. My reaction to "the topic in the first place" was one of contempt for what I viewed as a rhetorical method of floating a position without ever taking responsibility for it, much less offering evidence in support of it. As someone who holds a less than respectful attitude towards the NT in general, I would be delighted to find that Josephus penned Paul, and I'll eagerly consider any scholarship supporting such a claim. I fully suspect that none will be forthcoming.

 

Nothing to forgive

Nothing to forgive, as I find disrespect and challenge are your preferred methods. What authority do I have to assess, forgive, or absolve the "sins" of your communication?

Well, obviously you don't have anything else but your contempt to bring, else you would have brought it. I've heard the topic assertion before, but have never found a reliable vein of information to make it clear to me.

Perhaps if the question was worded, Has anyone heard how that hating liar Paul may have taken the cowardly route and written under the name Josephus? I would understand and even perhaps sympathize with your contempt.

And, as always, better thinkers will do your homework for you.

Part of the problem with even finding the assertion is farming through the mass of largely incomprehensible testimonies that involve both Paul and Josephus. I perfectly understand a person's need to say, "Hey, has anyone else heard this?"

Who knows? Someone might have the document M*W needs to resolve the question sitting on their bookshelf.

So while it's not my place to speak for M*W, I'll file an amicus plea: Forgive her, please, for asking in the first place.

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Re: Re: ConsequentAtheist

I had it on my own bookshelf. Jesus, Last of the Pharaohs: The True History of Religion Revealed, 1999, by Ralph Ellis, EDFU books, Great Britain, pages 213-217 and 231.

Page 213: "'Saul' was none other than Josephus, the Jewish historian whose works I have been using all through the early sections of this book. Is it not amazing that this similarity between the life of Josephus and that of Saul has not been commented on before?"

Page 214: "Why would a man like Saul, who turned every misfortune to his advantage, not with to give his side of the story? Of course he would--and he did--but in the guise of Josephus, not Saul. The great work was known as "The Jewish War" and with its publication, Saul/Josephus managed to contort his true position of Jewish traitor and quisling for the Romans into a glorious victory for himself. Like his alter ego Saul, Josephus was a man who could change sides twice in the conflict and brazenly profess that perfidy was a virture."

Page 215: "Of course, Josephus did know of Jesus and his followers, but he chose to write the section of his history dealing with Jesus under the pseudonym of Saul or Paul. The "Antiquities of the Jews" was Josephus's version of the Old Testament; the Acts of the Apostles (under the pen-name Saul) was his history of the New Testament. In reality it was actually Josephus himself who was persecuting Jesus and his disciples across Galilee, but in the guise of Saul. Saul was the chief of police in the region, just as the Bible implies."

"So why did Saul/Josephus need two names--why the two life stories? The reason that Josephus did not write of Jesus in his works under the name of Josephus is twofold."

"Firstly, it is because the real-life story of Jesus was so different from the one Saul had overseen being written into the gospel stories. As far as his spiritual hisotry of the era was concerned, the least said the better."

"Secondly, remember that Josephus was writing these books for profit."

"Of necessity, the two works had to be separate; one was a secular story, the other spiritual. This is something that Saul's schizophrenic mind could have accomplished with great ease. At the same time, Josephus was writing under another name--that of Saul. He chose this pseudonym for good reason, for he saw himself as the Old Testament king, Saul."

Page 216: "So it was under the pseudonym of Saul that Josephus was busy penning yet more letters across Europe from Rome, thirteen of which are preserved in the Bible. If nothing else, Josephus/Saul was prolific in his work and if he failed to become the King of the Jews, he at least achieved a religious immortality."

Page 217: "If Joseph, Josephus and the biblical Saul were one and the same, then one might expect that this Matthias Barsabas might be mentioned in the same context as Saul (being his brother). This, taken together with the fusion of the characters Saul and Josephus in the previous pages, makes the chances of this story being a biblical reference to the historian Josephus extremely good--one that agains indicates that Josephus was Saul."

Page 231: "Many people will probably concur with the identification of Saul and Josephus as being one and the same. Saul/Josephus retired to Rome to write his books and to organize the fledgling church."