Hello. UFOs. Assertion #1: There's something real going on My first of many posts I believe. Just saying hello.
Ask and ye shall receive: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/ufo20.pdf Also: "Now You See It, Now You Don't" by Captain Henry S. Shields, HQ USAFE/INOMP Joint Chiefs of Staff report concerning the sighting of a UFO in Iran on 19 September 1976, Edit: Please continue this thread here: The real UFOs
Welcome Ivan Seeking I'm interested in looking at your links but it's been a while since I've had one of those messages saying that the site might not be safe and do I trust the source - so my question is do I save it or just open it and hope for the best? Cheers Teri
Re: Welcome Ivan Seeking The links are all directly to the U.S. National Security Agency [dot gov]. Hopefully this is a safe site. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Thanks. I have few goodies to offer. Hopefully no one will be disappointed. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Thus far I have never gotten past the first document [one of several hundred] for consideration. It is interesting the John Titor threads run up post counts like the national debt [under Bush], but a good piece of evidence gets nothing but silence. http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28335
Just once I would like to hear one skeptic say: Holy shit Ivan, that is impressive! Not that they must concede to aliens, just to admit that this is a highly compelling document. At best, I get silence.
Ivan, I would like to say thanks for posting your links. The documents are a good piece of circumstancial evidence. I think that may be a reason for the lack of responces. A true skeptic does not see them as PROOF that UFOs exist AND are of unearthly orgin. Speculation or theories are more easily challenged, but it would seem almost impossible to discount the validity of the documents themselves. It would also be very hard to offer a reasonable alternative explaination for the objects themselves, other than to speculate that the witnesses themselves misrepresented the facts. More solid circumstancial evidence may cause some people not aware of the extent of what is available to wonder if there may be something to the UFO phenomenon after all. Some would need a personal ride in a UFO piloted by aliens to accept their reality. After all, some people still insist we never went to the moon. I think material should be presented and everyone should be free to form their own opinions based on their own level of acceptance. I, myself, am quite skeptical of a lot of the speculation and claims made on many UFO websites, but do believe it is likely we are and have been visited by beings and probes not from earth. My opinions are just that, my own opinions based on my personal level of acceptance of much material from books, online sources and even some TV specials. The Iran incident is considered one of the more credible reports.
I agree. This is not scientific evidence and by no means can we use this as proof of anything. But like you said, I love hitting the virgin skeptics with this one. In fact, I'll go one better. I think this qualifies as a litmus test for the credibility of skeptics. Any skeptic that won’t consider this document as significant effectively disqualifies him or herself as credible. Clearly they lack objectivity. This then is not a skeptic but rather a religious zealot of the unbelieving kind.
Interesting documents. Significant only if the events unfolded as precisely as told by Mckenzie. Admittedly, I didn't examine the second and third as closely as the Mckenzie memo, but I'll assume they compliment it quite well or you wouldn't have posted them as well. Questions that I would pose to Mckenzie if I could would be: what were his sources for the narrative? What physical evidence did he, personally, see (radar printouts/recordings, flight recordings of communications, etc.)? Where is this physical evidence now? And perhaps one or two others, based on his answers. Questions I would like to ask the "powers that be" in DoD would be: why declassify after only 5 to 6 years? Why declassify at all? Wouldn't it be easier to put this off on a meteor/satelite burn in the atmosphere by keeping it secret? Since it is declassified, we can assume a couple of things... like the DoD regarded it as inconsequential. It is unlikely that any physical remains were discovered. It is possible that the entire event had another, classified, explanation that would better left to a UFO suspicion than the actual truth. Being a strategic location of the cold-war and a volitale region even then, a near nuclear incident with the Warsaw Pact would have been more important to keep secret than a UFO. Not that this is the only, or actual, explanation. It could have been aliens. We'll probably never know unless some additional documentation becomes available via new declassifications at some point in the future. Still, it seems unlikely that the DoD would declassify an actual UFO incident if there was any strong indication that this was the cause. Also, it is still just so much anecdotal account. Even the 'hard evidence' cited is but an anecdote of someone's observation of it (radar signatures, comms failures, etc.). That so many people had an account of something would indicate that something occured. Too bad none of those pilots had cameras... actually, it's strange that none had cameras.
This is the frustrating thing about this alleged incident. I was aware of the claims for this long before the official document was made available through the freedom of information act. I never expected to see such an official confirmation of the reports. So in one sense I was shocked to get what I got. But unfortunately this leaves us with no scientific evidence with which to proceed. [Of course I have many others of these kinds of data ready when needed]. I think most anyone must admit though; this is not something that can be easily dismissed. I consider this logical but not scientific evidence. The way I see it, we could have: A deliberate hoax on or by our government; perhaps to hide advanced technology. A real event that was somehow exaggerated in the minds of credible people A real event that mostly happened as described; in which case it becomes very difficult to explain. If we didn't have the sighting of a cylinder in addition to the main event, I would be more inclined to include a EM/chemical phenomenon as a likely source. The intelligent behavior could almost be blown off as coincidental though unlikely. Really, most of the main event could be due to something natural like a giant ball lighting thingy. But I think when taken in total, the behavior is too complex to be coincidental. Also, the pilots seemed sure that they saw an object that emanated a bright light; not just a ball of light. Finally, I don't know if any kind of ball lightning or earthquake lights are thought to show up on radar. So it comes back to the credibility of the report. Again, I can only argue that given the distribution to nearly all of the highest levels of government, we must assume that this report was investigated so as to eliminate a simple hoax as the source; before being sent to the White House for example. Consider how many heads would roll if a bogus report that read like this made it to the president's desk! Why declassify: Now that is an interesting question isn't it. First, you must remember that if we take the government at face value, the official position is not that UFOs don’t exist; the statement is that UFOs are not of national security interest. So this makes pretty clear why they might declassify this document. Assume that nobody really knows what’s going on, but what ever the heck they are, if they are, these UFO things don’t seem to cause trouble. So, when the mandate for this doc came in through the FOIA, no blacking-out was required. The only reason the government would have to hide this information would be if some other conspiracy theory about UFOs were true! Also, they must release the doc if certain criteria are met, but they can black out all the text if they want…and sometimes do. Next, like you said, this could just be a very elaborate cover story. This also strains credibility since it involves a conspiracy to defraud, not just to obfuscate. These are official, internal documents. This would imply a something like a fraud by the Air Force perpetrated on the White House, the NSA, CIA… Of course, we must consider this a possibility. Thirdly, it may have simply fallen through the cracks somehow. Perhaps it was impossible to hide due to the distribution of this to so many agencies. This may explain why we can’t get the air force files but we have this one. This could account for many of your objections. It would be hard to hide something so widely distributed. The FOIA has many fingers. The key was that someone knew exactly which document to ask for under a FOIA request. This is not so hard now, but it was then. Finally, if we go with the true believers for a moment, this could be part of a controlled release of information. Agreed; with the caveat that it is anecdotal, but not just anecdotal. This report clearly carries more logical weight; say as if we were in a court of law, than the latest national enquirer story would for example. I think a clear distinction does exist that justifies the further discussion of other evidence
Good post, Ivan. I also have those documents. I also have the FBI documents - those are also worth a peak. BTW - I also wonder where WellCooked is and her skepticism.
