Terrorism strikes power grid in USA

**static76** · 08-15-03, 04:33 PM

If it's an attack, it would be some kind of virus, because I think the problem is with the computers that run the grid. If it was mechanical, they should be able to manually override the system.

**justiceusa** · 08-15-03, 08:52 PM

It's not an attack, it is just big business doing its thing. The North American Electric Reliability Council, states that investment in new transmission facilities has declined $100 million dollars per year for the last two decades. And that comes on top of deregulation and mega corporation take overs in the energy sector.

Bush was warned, Bush ignored.

http://www.nema.org/publications/ei/...bushenergy.htm

**Persol** · 08-15-03, 08:58 PM

What is with all the conspiracy theory around here. This is a very simple (and well known) problem with the US's (and most other country's) power grid.

Think of the electricity system as a bunch of connected grid. Each grid has supply (power plants) and demand (homes, factories, resturaunts). What can happen is that for one reason or another, the supply is cut. This could have been the afformentioned tree, or some idiot powering down generators. Now there is more demand then supply, and the other power stations trip out to protect themselves. This lowers the supply even further. Now power is drawn from other grids. Those other grids can not supply enough, and they trip out.

This ONLY stopped when the rolling blackouts hit a grid which have a system in place which automatically isolates itself from this danger. When the system covering PA/southern NJ saw that amount of power being pulled from it, it automatically stopped supplying power to the NY region. Otherwise the entire east coast would have gone down.

So basically,
1) Demand goes up (resturaunts kick on at 4PM)
2) Same time, a problem cuts the supply.
3) Power Plants shut themselves down for protection. Supply drops further.
4) Next grid in line starts gets a jump in demand, as it now has to supply the other grid.
5) Steps 4 & 5 repeat until you hit a modern grid.
6) Isolation kicks in, and affected grids are 'cut off' to prevent the problem from spreading.

To fix the problem, they have to bring plants back online, but they have to be careful that the plant doesn't trip right back out due to another sudden spike in demand.

**10-10-220** · 08-15-03, 09:00 PM

Power is back on.

**justiceusa** · 08-16-03, 01:14 AM

Detroit is still out and may not be fully restored until Monday.

To truly resolve the problem will require that new transmission and control equipment be installed, and that grid management techniques be modified to fit a changing market place. Many improvements were made in the western grid after the outages of 1996.

Our current electrical generation and distribution system, by its nature is prone to failure. There are a lot of "players" involved in the current market. Some companies only produce electricity, others buy and sell electrial power as a commodity. The transmission lines, switchgear, substations and distribution is provided by a hodge podge of companies, some small , and some being mega corporations.

There is no one single point of management or control, there are hundreds. Most have no way to communicate or co-ordinate with equipment outside of their own system, even though the systems are all interconected.

For the most part in recent years the energy industry simply has not included reliability as a part of their service.

**dinokg** · 08-16-03, 03:46 PM

Hears something I forgot to mention:

This power outage was the largest in US history!

It has effected about 50 million people compared to the one in 1965 that "only" effected 30 million people.

There have been many theories going around as to what caused this outage. So far lightning, terrorism, and solar flares have been ruled out. So now the most likely explanation is over demand.

Another thing about the outage.
Toledos power was only out for 1 to 3 hours.(My power was back on in 1 hour and my grandmas in 3 hours)
But Detroit has been out for 2 days and counting.

Thats a little strange.

**Persol** · 08-16-03, 03:57 PM

Well the large/out of date grids (Detroit) had to manually seperate themselves from outside deman when the started back up.

I'm not quite buying the over demand thing though. Power demand estimations are VERY good. Any non-standard power usage usually 'ramps up' slowly enough for standby generators to be brought online. Somebody, somewhere, messed up.

**Congrats** · 08-16-03, 05:13 PM

This summer has been so rainy and cool that a spike in demand does not seem to be a likely cause.

Some guy probably just tripped over a wire or something.

**Persol** · 08-16-03, 05:20 PM

Even on hot days, it wouldn't cause a large spike. People turn their hvac on at different times... due in part by different building insulation, location, heat/cold tolerance, etc..

**dinokg** · 08-17-03, 07:10 AM

Now I hear it might have something to due with a tree in Ohio.

**justiceusa** · 08-17-03, 01:21 PM

I read about the tree in an associated press article in the morning paper. The story now is that a 345,000 volt line in Ohio had a problem that caused it to shut down and divert its power to a second line. The second line overheated causing it to sag low enough to touch a tree. ZAP. Holy cow I hope we aren't that stupid.

**Avatar** · 08-17-03, 01:34 PM

hmmm so it takes one tree to cause panic in to 60 million people and shut down their power grid

terrorists maybe have to switch to gardening

**sweet Pentax** · 08-17-03, 04:04 PM

perhaps it has something to do with this :

http://www.nerc.com/~filez/standards-cyber.html

look at the datum (August 13, 2003) ....

here is some more : ftp://ftp.nerc.com/pub/sys/all_updl/...RBB-Letter.pdf
LoVeSaN

**Persol** · 08-17-03, 04:07 PM

Perhaps not

**dinokg** · 08-17-03, 08:21 PM

Hopefully someone in the government or electric industry upgrades the power lines of the country so a lone tree can't knock out a good portion of the country.

**Persol** · 08-17-03, 08:28 PM

It's not a power line problem... it's an isolation problem.

The tree just happened to be the trigger. Any number of other things could have had the same effect.

**dinokg** · 08-17-03, 08:42 PM

Yep if the isolation system is good enough it would stop the massive blackouts from happening in the first place.

But trees and over things would still cause minor blackouts.