God...........Again.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Miguelio, Jul 19, 2003.

  1. Miguelio Registered Member

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    If Atheits say that God doesn't exist, why are they always talking about him?

    Just curious...

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  3. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    Because theists won't stop insisting that he exists.

    BTW, welcome to sciforums.

    ~Raithere
     
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  5. Miguelio Registered Member

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    Re: Re: God...........Again.

    We are all very insisting people...

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  7. Miguelio Registered Member

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    I don't understand why Atheists deny the existence of a Creator. They don't know that God doesn't exist. They just believe. Sure, they use all kinds of logical arguments, but logic is just the study of the internal coherence of the speech. Sometimes an argument can be valid (with internal coherence), but without reality. When i look to logical arguments, although i don't think they are a proof, it seems to me that the arguments that say that nature has a rational structure, structured by a creator, are better when compared to what atheism has to say...

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  8. Well, most of the folks you hastily categorize as "atheists" are actually agnostics, who are totally unconvinced, and mostly unconcerned. They only argue the nonexistence of God because they want to antagonize religious zealots and debunk the promulgations thereof.
     
  9. Miguelio Registered Member

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    Then i guess atheists are just furious people when God is in debate...

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    How come?

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  10. Miguelio Registered Member

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    Hey, maybe the problem is Religion. After all there are many types of Gods. Atheists logically believe that this means that the idea of an universal Creator is just our imagination working. This is one way to see things. Another way to see it is to believe that all cultures have an intuitive idea of a Creator of the Universe. And that this basic intuition is something to be taken seriously...

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  11. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Miguelo:

    If we look to ancient literature we will find stories of so many amazing things:

    Gods, aliens, unicorns, dragons, giant octopi that ate ships, lost drowned cities, and so on and so forth.

    To just accept one as undeniable fact is to accept them all as undeniable facts. Perhaps they are, but perhaps is not good enough.

    The very instant a human just accepts something as complete and total fact, without anything to show it as being complete and total fact- he gives up the main reason to be considered part of an intelligent species.
     
  12. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Miguelio,

    You might have something there.

    Poor choice of words I suspect. What you really mean is that there are many different concepts of gods. Remember that no one has ever shown that there is an actual thing as a god.

    You mean like a fantasy? Well done, dead right.

    Not quite; that is the factual way to see it. Since no one can show that any god exists then the idea can only be a fantasy, right? You would have to show an actual god to prove it wasn’t a fantasy.

    All cultures? I think Buddhists, and a few other non-theist cultures would somewhat disagree with you. But more precisely it is about 1.2 billion people in the world who say they don’t hold such a perspective, there is probably a lot more but they tend to just follow the crowd and tend not to think for themselves very much.

    Of course instead of intuition it might be that they have observed that most people tend to die and they kinda like the notion that perhaps there is a father figure who will look after them when they die. Another fantasy, by the way.

    Only if you think stories of fiction ever come true.
     
  13. Cris, do you know of a website wherefrom I could obtain statistics concerning religion and agnosticism?
    Verily, I do not question your approximation, but I'd like to know since the information could prove useful in the demonstration of certain points to a certain wayward recalcitrant with whom I have of late become upset.
     
  14. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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  15. Miguelio Registered Member

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    I don't believe in Dragons, unicorns or the Santa Klaus. But i think that the idea of a Creator as a reason for existence is very good.

    I don't see God as a complete and total fact, although nature has a rational structure (I guess this is something to show).

    Don't confuse knowledge with belief. Belief is an important part of Humankind. Even in science there's a measure of belief. And the same goes to all aspects of our life...

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  16. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Rational and organised only appear that way when you have a finished product. (i'm not implying animals are "finished", but hopefully you get the point).

    If i pulled my computer apart so it was just nuts, screws and components it would appear as organised as a nuclear bomb zone. Once it's all together in one piece it would be considered vastly complex and organised.

    (please note: by this i do not mean dissecting an animal to see what's inside- cause even at the smallest level you will find what appears to be extreme complexity, but instead to look at the orginal template- IF we could, of course).

    However, the seemingly complex systems are not really evidence of anything relating to a god. Some would argue, and in fact the creationist forum i've recently been on seems to regard that as it's sole argument. Example: Termites make mounds that look like castles and have air conditioning, thus: god exists. I would consider that very premature, but everyone is entitled to be as premature as he wants.

    I didn't confuse anything with anything. And furthermore belief is fine to a degree, but the complete and total udeniability of something unproven, and lacking any evidence is frankly off the scope. You might not consider the existence of a god as undeniable fact- but there are many who do.

    While i will consider the possibility of it, i think it's too soon in the day to state a definite yes or no.

    We are left with the following as debate:

    The purple munchkin man who lives on cloud 15 exists.

    If, as you say, belief (in this instance) is important i would disagree. I find it self-deluding and dangerous. With that kinds of fantastical freedom we can conjure up anything we want to, and the need to backup claims goes straight out the window.
     
  17. Miguelio Registered Member

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    If i couldn't show that the earth spins around the sun, does this mean that i'm living a fantasy? Maybe my imagination can have something here (based in small peaces of information about the real world)

    Buddhists don't deny the idea of a creator. They just don't think about it... The Hindus have a different concept of Creator. The Creator, in the Hindu vision, was the one that gave structure to existence...

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  18. Miguelio Registered Member

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    Maybe yhe worl is organized because there is an organizer! Can you deny this? I think you just prefer to think that everything is the result of an infinity of matter revolutions, that eventually created our world the way it is. Hey, that's one way to see things...

    In That case computers can be generated by natural processes without the help of an intelligence

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    .
    In the case of the termites, God didn't made the castle like mouds. The termites did it...

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  19. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Sure, maybe there is. I will never deny the possibility of a god, anything's possible. However, am i supposed to just accept everything as existing because it's possible? With reference to my last post, if it's all about possibility and possibility alone then i can believe in whatever i want and it's completely undeniable.

    By the same token, we shouldn't just deny a possibility outright.

    What does that leave us with? ah yes, the importance of evidence.

    Perhaps god doesn't leave evidence, but then again neither does the abominable snowman. That doesn't help justify either of them as being true. Some don't need evidence or facts, i do. You could say "i was created that way". I do not share the impulse of many to believe in things merely for the sake of believing, merely for the gifts i might receive for doing so, or because that's what my "heart" tells me to do. It is a burden, but one i deem essential.

    The only thing i "prefer" is truth. As such i can only work with the evidence present. I can't work with the claim of someone telling me "there is a god". That is not sufficient evidence. They may very well be telling the truth but how is anyone supposed to judge that? Especially considering the multitude of different "beliefs". Yes, the how's and why's are mere theories- on both sides- and that's why i do not instantly regard either as ultimate truth.

    How so? The example was concerning the appearance of complexity in something that is just a bunch of bits and pieces. (looking at the whole, instead of the parts). It doesn't bear any relevance to whether a god exists or not.

    Lol, don't need to tell me that- but thats the current "evidence" shown on this particular creationist forum. It's as if to state "god embued them with the power to make air conditioning". Maybe he did. Maybe isn't good enough.
     
  20. Miguelio Registered Member

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    Well, in your example you said that the complexity of the the computers isn't a proof that God exists. But such complexity was created by our inteligence. No one would ever say that computers can be generated by natural processes without an intelligence behind.

    However, in the Universe there are things that are so much more complex... In this case you believe that there isn't an intelligence involved...

    I just think your example isn't coherent...

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  21. filibuster I only call names in bed Registered Senior Member

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    simple

    No, it means you are simple. It is very easy to prove that the Earth revolves around the sun.

    How about if I prove to you that organized religion is the source of the world's worst suffering: almost every war ever fought, sexual repression enforced by law, and a disregard for the sanctity of our planet (just a pit stop, not our home)

    Darwin proved all we need to know about "creation". He expalined everything.

    All religions must die.
     
  22. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    No i didn't. I stated that just because something looks complex as a finished product, doesn't mean it is when you break it down to it's basics, (origins). Want me to quote my entire last post as evidence?

    On my 3rd paragraph i stated that seemingly complex systems aren't proof of a god, and that still stands. Perhaps you misunderstood but "systems" doesn't imply computer systems like windows xp. My apologies, i didn't think i'd need to point it out.

    Seemingly complex systems: Such as this particular spider that looks identical to an ant, (and only eats ants). The one problem of course is a spider has 8 legs, whereas ants have only 6. So the spider lifts his two front legs above his head like antennae and thus gives off a convincing appearance that he is in fact an ant..

    To a creationist that would imply design.

    Of course they never look at the other side of things:

    There's a moth which, while larvae, burrows a hole in the ground and goes to sleep for 13 years. It comes out of the hole, climbs up a tree, turns into a moth, has sex then drops dead. The femal survives a tiny while longer in order to lay new eggs.

    Of course this particular moth has no quarms that it's entire existence is purely to get laid, and hell, why would it complain?

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    There is no sign of complex behaviour within this species. It doesn't actually do bugger all.

    I apologise you thought i was referring to linux 1.4 or windows millennium, but i wasn't.

    And why would we? We know humans make them. Does anyone know god made us? Can you provide some proof plz.

    And so many things that are just plain daft. Furthermore, and i hate repeating, things only seem complex from this perspective. We don't have all that much understanding of the universe and everything on it, so how could it look anything other than complex? Once it is researched, analysed, and evidence is acquired, things start to look that much more simple.

    Once more for the record: I dont "believe" anything in this context. I simply look at the evidence. Currently there is None to suggest we were created, and a whole heap of evidence to suggest we evolved. From debates on creationists forums they give nothing but the following:

    Things are complex; thus god did it all
    I don't see a rabbit turning into a dog (this is so so common and yet comes from simple ignorance to what evolution actually is)
    Giraffes have a thing in their neck which allows them to bend over without bursting a major artery; thus god exists

    and other such arguments based on pure heresy and nonsense. It's as weak as early earth belief. Of course that too is possible- just nothing to support it.

    Perhaps we just speak a different language?
     
  23. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Miguelio,

    Yes I can. Computers were not designed by humans. Computers evolved just like everything else. Computers have been evolving for thousands of years starting with probably the abacus.

    If intelligence was the primary factor behind something seemingly complex then why didn’t cavemen build computers? They had the same level of intelligence as modern man. The intelligence of man is a natural result of evolution; that it assists much like a catalyst to help computers evolve is again a natural process.

    There is no evidence that anything intelligent ever designed anything complex. Everything we see as complex even the modern computer was the result of something earlier and simpler. Currently we know of no other mechanism other than evolution for the existence of anything, especially anything complex.
     

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