The simple solution: Don't be Catholic

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tiassa, Jul 17, 2003.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Just a reminder to all that your religion is a choice. Certes, you may have been raised to believe in God, and even in one specific religion, but there comes a point where we do not forgive racists, wife-beaters, or child-molesters on the grounds of their upbringing.

    And perhaps we've come across a case where one's right to religion has reached its limits:

    - Church sued for "hell prediction" (BBC)
    You know, I think Reverend Timothy Lovejoy, of Simpsons fame has arrived.

    But you cannot sue your church in order to be a Catholic (or Lutheran, or Baptist, or whatever) on your own terms. Quite obviously, some Americans really have forgotten why they strangle themselves with labels and paradigms.

    What, is Christian faith supposed to be easy or something?

    Maybe I'm wrong, though, in my perceptions. After all, with a simoniac history dogging the church, perhaps the family had every reason to expect a Catholic preacher to be nothing more than a mouthpiece of earthly praise. Maybe they just didn't offer the right bribe?

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  3. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, there are some very evil priests out there. There are some who are just priest in order to make money. If the priest actually studied what the faith teaches... A mortal sin requires
    1. Grave matter.
    2. Full Knowledge.
    3. Full Consent.

    Because no one can really judge if the individual had 2 and 3, it is impossible to judge if the individual commited a mortal sin. It is also impossible to know if the individual did not repent of his sin before dying.

    I see it as prediction of prophesy in the bible. Joel 1:13 "Gird yourselves and weep, O priests! wail, O ministers of the alter!"

    Hosea 4:4 "But let no one protest, let no one complain; with you is my grievance, O priest! You shall stumble in the day, and the prophets shall stumble with you at night;"
     
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  5. everneo Re-searcher Registered Senior Member

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    Its wrong on part of the priest for 2 reasons :

    1. He was judging on behalf of the God.

    2. Had he been more tactical and offered a mock prayer to God to forgive the 'mortal sinner' for all his sin and not send him to hell, the family would not have gone to court, though message is same.

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  7. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    Why some kind of minor US parish dispute is on BBC is mind boggling. Those english really are trying to make everyone secular.

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  8. Americano Registered Senior Member

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    ShutUp Okinrus. U don't know anything about sin< mortal or imortal so just shut up.
     
  9. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    I thought that was the point. The priest cannot pronounce judgement on somone unless if he knows for certain 2 and 3.
    The <a href="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#III">Catechism</a> says "For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent." Are you debating what the Church teaches or that the priest nor myself can fully judge somone?
     
  10. Ladybug Registered Member

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    Is the practicing of religion supposed to be HARD? In all of my experience, I have never heard anyone say that faith was so hard like I have heard here. I've heard that LIFE is difficult, and that life is unfair, but I've not heard that about religion.
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    The priest is almost immaterial

    Does it not strike you that people of faith have taken it upon themselves to sue the church merely because the result they got was not what they expected?

    So what if the priest is a bastard? Without sarcasm--it's nice to hear bad press about Catholics that doesn't involve a child choking on Father Bob. Bad news about anyone that doesn't involve hurting children is a wonderful step up from bad press that involves sexually assaulted and abused children.

    How many people expect by common stereotype that a preacher they meet is going to be a prig of one brand or another? I'm so used to it that I'm delighted to meet a man of the cloth who still has the kind of faith that radiates human potential. Excuse me, did I just limit myself to a man of the cloth? I'll hold that for any human being, period, though I suppose that's beyond the primary discussion.

    I think God made it so that "you can't take it with you" for a reason. Can you imagine how many people would dare bring their attorneys to argue with the Almighty they have chosen to have faith in?

    In order for this lawsuit to have any merit it must be shown that someone is forcing these people to be Catholic.

    A note for Okinrus:

    I'm not going to pick on your examination of doctrine. Sorry the point was so vague for you.

    However, I was actually wondering in my own mind who would be the first to take after the BBC's coverage of American religious oddities. And I will take a short moment to mock you for that: Don't be so paranoid.

    I mean, really ... I never hear about Egyptian shepherds unless one is killed by his own sheep.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  12. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    I should be more paranoid. The UK anti-catholic stance is growing. They amost put a tv show on making fun of the Pope.
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    American religion--Catholic or otherwise--is goofy

    Okinrus

    The thing is that American religion is just downright goofy. It's not just the Catholics the BBC is picking on, it's the whole circus of the post-Christian God that seems to dominate the world's largest superpower. Something like 85% of Americans believe in God, some surveys go as high as 95%. The most powerful and visible manifestations of that belief are stunning to the outside observer. The sex scandal isn't anything new to the Catholic Church, but the American fiasco and the way both the Church and the media in general handled the ... affair ... didn't help. And you know, "Tuition is going down like an altar boy," probably is inappropriate, but when you get Donohue from the Catholic League on Donahue the gadfly's show apoplectic, spitting, and the kind of character we reserve for caricatures of right-wing radio hosts .... I mean, he let a twenty year-old philosophy student from a small liberal arts college get the best of him because he couldn't keep his priorities straight.

    And how about that multibillion-dollar televangelism industry we've got going? Give me that old-time religion, 'cause it's good enough for me.

    Chick ministries? "God hates fags"? An unhealthy obsession with sex and rock and roll? Creationism in schools? The Reagan/Koop abstinence line on AIDS was morbid as it comes. Koresh? "Emmanuel", or whatever his name was that snatched Elizabeth Smart? Eric Rudolph? The "God Bless America" overkill that's been going on since 9/11? George Bush getting instructions from God?

    Come now. The United States is the most influential nation on the face of the earth. And when religious delusions plague the most influential nation on the face of the earth, said delusions merit some attention.

    In the case of this topic's article, it's the notion that a member of a parish can sue a church because they are unhappy with what the church says. As one who saw the memorial service for a troubled friend of mine turn into a stump-conversion session, as one who has listened to a preacher lie about a person in order to ease a family's burden--not just omit things, but make up outright lies--I'm not sure that's appropriate. I'm quite sure, in fact, that it's inappropriate. And it would seem to me, too, that perhaps the preacher displayed poor judgment in his timing, but I am having some difficulty restraining laughter at the notion that you can sue your church when you don't like what it has to say.

    For these people, the solution is to move to another church. They are the only thing keeping them Catholic and trapped in that church.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  14. Jeremy Imagine Registered Senior Member

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    The priest knocks back too much holy water, mouths off because he had a bad day (no choir practice) and you read him the riot act. Jeez, give the guy a break.
     
  15. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    I agree with their right to sue the church. It's public slander and goes against the teachings of the church. Ok, the guys in his eighties and can barely hear or see. And the priest is saying he's hellbound because he couldn't make it to church, while he's sick? My bet is that they must have had some kind of personal problem, or maybe it's a communication mixup. I've found that there's always ways to "lie" without lying.

    Now this is the way to <a href="http://dev.stg.brown.edu:1977/decameron/engDecShowText.jsp?myID=nov0101&expand=day01">die.</a>
     
  16. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    Anti catholic in the UK? Naw, we gave that up a few years ago. Its the USA thats setting them up for a withchunt.
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Well ....

    If the intent is to decieve, obfuscate, or avoid complete relevant honesty ...?

    The crooked politicians repeatedly endorsed by the American people rely on lying without lying. Witness the hair-splitting going on in American political circles.

    But ... I just want to get this straight: If people do not like the apparent results of their faith in God and His Church, they should sue the Church?

    It just sounds like another group of people who want their religion to conform to them, instead of submitting to their religion. Out of line or not is almost irrelevant to me.

    To sue your church over something like this only demonstrates the absurdly low value of American faith.

    Or so says me.

    BTW ... in a moment of dubious pride, my refrain of "go to another church" was Jay Leno's punchline last night: "... the ultimate punishment--transfer to another parish." Not sure what to think about that. Leno's not funny. Maybe I've estimated wrongly the absurdity of the situation, but thankfully Leno's no benchmark for that.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  18. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    It has to be more than dislike. The claimant has a valid case because of the emotional abuse.
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    O ... kay

    If you say so.

    But don't wonder why the BBC mocks American religion. They're not necessarily trying to. It's just that this is the sort of news Americans generate.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  20. DeeCee Valued Senior Member

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    Well he does wear a funny hat and expect total strangers to kiss his ring

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    People take the piss out of the church 'cos the church is funny.
    Dee Cee
     

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