Freedom of religion protects abortion

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by GodLied, Jul 16, 2003.

  1. GodLied Registered Senior Member

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    436
    Women claiming belief in the Old Testament can, on religious grounds, abort a male fetus if it is her first male fetus. Hmm. If she then burned the fetal matter she will be feeding her god.

    GodLied.
     
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  3. Mystee Registered Senior Member

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    I wish you could put just half of the energy you put into this forum into somthing useful. You constantly attempt to get peope's backs up. I admire the fact that you want people to back up what they believe, yet I see none of that from you. In fact I don't even have the slightest clue what you do believe though I have read most of your recent posts. rather than another pointless debat on the relevance of the old testement why don't you state somethnig real. For example: What do you believe in if not the God of the old testament?

    In Christ's undying love,

    Mystee
     
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  5. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    What you're asking...

    Mystee, what you are asking GodLied is to write something that doesn't antagonize your beliefs. I, and possibly others as well, find GodLied's posts useful, intelligent, well-researched, thoroughly thought out and profound. Xians on sciforums (and everywhere else) have a Jesus chip on their shoulders just waiting for the rest of us who have not been brainwashed to knock it off! Does it really matter that much to you what others believe? I think not. All you know is what YOU believe. Yes, the world would be a much more simple place if everyone believed like you, but we're all not that stupid or vulnerable to the powers of suggestion that be. It's a big world out there, and I realize you are still young. Your little mind has not had the time to think and reason all the possibilities of your existence and your place in the greater scheme of things. sciforums is a good place to start, though, so I can see that you truly are "questioning" your beliefs and looking for "answers" that your religion hasn't provided for you. If your Xian church knew that you were participating in such a diverse religious forum, they would be very unhappy with you! But, we won't tell them! You would be wise to read more and write less. It is no "accident" that you are here. So, let us old-timers lead you into the right direction of infinite possibilities!
     
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  7. everneo Re-searcher Registered Senior Member

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    Re: What you're asking...

    I don't think so. Perhaps you had not asked such questions yourself when you were at the age of 11.
     
  8. GodLied Registered Senior Member

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    436
    Mystee, if you are a devout God Lover, follow His law and:

    1. Kill your first son.
    2. Kill the first born male of every uterus to every animal you own.
    3. Give up all your civil rights for women lacked any civil rights in the Holy Bible.
    4. Give up your freedom of choice to a man who will chose everything for you, even your husband.
    5. Consider yourself not as a woman but as a piece of property to be bought, sold and/or assigned in transactions.
    6. Let your spouse beat you as long as you are able to walk the following day.
    7. Start a women's group to undo all that has been done for women by women.

    Go on Mystee, be the mother of the year and become a model woman in God's word so that CPS will take your other children away from you, attorneys will put in an insane assylum, or --in Texas-- you could recieve the death penalty.

    GodLied.
     
  9. GodLied Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    436
    Re: Re: What you're asking...

    As long as you are at least 11, what are your answers to the questions you mention?

    GodLied.
     
  10. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    8,346
    Re: Re: What you're asking...

    Oh, yes I did! Actually I was seven when I made my first anti-Xian statement. It was at a Missionary Baptist Church in South Carolina where I had gone with my neighborhood friends. It was Palm Sunday, and in Sunday school class, the old bat who was the teacher called on me to tell Jesus how I really felt about him dying for me. Now I was a very shy little girl who was very quiet and never spoke out at all. When the old bat called on me, first, of course, to tell Jesus what I thought, the very first thought that came into my little impressionable mind was, I said, "Jesus, I'm sorry you had to die for me." With that, the old bat raged over to me yelling, "Sorry!," "Sorry!," "You're SORRY Jesus died for YOU!" Then she appropriately slapped my little fat face! Well, today, I could have her old bat ass hauled off to jail for assault, but in my day, old bats like her were within their churchly rights!

    I suppose the old bat did leave an impression on me, though. I always wondered why she gotten so upset with what I had said. It was about the Jesus dying but not for me part.

    Okay, so I grew up and went to a Baptist university, and everyone around me kept asking me if I was "born again," and if I "was saved." They also left an impression on me that I can't forget.

    I even went so far to find out if Jesus really did die for me that I converted to Catholicism and became a teacher of Catholic doctrine for many years. All the while there was this little voice in my head, the same voice that was there when I was seven, telling me "Jesus didn't die or anyone's sins." I was led to the South of France, the Languedoc, Septimania, where I studied every possible religious site I could. Then I traveled to Rome and stayed in Vatican City and explored St. Peter's so extensively to find some kind of proof that this voice in my head could be wrong. I went into the dungeon where Paul was beheaded and Peter was crucified upside down and I could only feel that their mission was a lost cause. While standing underneath the high altar and viewing the gold inlaid in everything, I heard that voice in my head that say, "Jesus would be ashamed of all of this glitz and glitter."

    I left Xianity forever. My heart opened up, my soul was fulfilled, and I came to have a deeper personal relationship with my Creator who tried all my life to teach me the wonderful treasures one of the Soul. There is no need for a mediator, a middle-man, or a savior. We were put here by our Creator to be One with our Creator. Salvation comes from within, not without, and not from someone who was supposed to die for us a long time ago. The Messiah is the Spirit within each of us. That's why we're here.
     
  11. Gifted World Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    2,113
    Um, just to point out, Christ fulfilled that law, so it's a moot point. All of the Books of Moses, and quite a bit of other stuff, doesn't really matter any more. Do I go to church and take a goat to burn on the altar? No. About the only thing we can do with the Old Testament is see how stupid the Isrealites were, learn from this example, and the few prophesies that pertain to today.
     
  12. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    2,669
    This is not an anti-Xian statement. Most people do feel sorry. They don't call them the sorrowful mysteries for nothing.

    If these voices are really inner voices, I think that they are demons. You should not put any faith on them or feel sorry for what they say.

    Why should he be ashamed? Gold was created by him.
     
  13. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    1,579
    I find nothing about this troll worthy of admiration. Not once has s/he shown the ability to engage in anything but the most juvenile efforts to incite.
     
  14. Re: What you're asking...

    MedicineWoman, I hope you were being facetious when you wrote this. If not, I suggest that you reflect on how haughty, condesending, and dismissive it is.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2003
  15. Okinrus, you know very well why He would be ashamed! Whatever considerable resources were expended on all that "glitz and glitter" could have been put to less frivolous and ostentatious and more charitable uses.
     
  16. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    8,346
    Why would Jesus be ashamed???

    I believe from what Jesus was supposed to have said about worldly goods, the gold inlaid in St. Peter's could feed the world for a long time to come. All I could think about while I was there was the "money changers at the temple." Prostitutes were thick around St. Peter's. Commercialism was rampant. I found more inner peace and the spirit moving at Lourdes, but the nuns there are so hateful that it distracted from the abounding love I felt from people from all over the world.

    Call it what you like. Xians think that everyone else is demon-possessed. My experiences and my intuition or gut feeling have never let me down or caused me any problem. If someone is demon-possessed, surely they would have trouble all around them. Once you receive this "knowing," this truth will make you free from the limitations of your mind. If I had demons, I don't think my life would have been as blessed as it has been. I believe I am the luckiest person I've ever known. Everything that I want falls into my lap it seems, mostly because I have a positive outlook on life, and I know that God dwells within my soul. There is no need to look elsewhere for anything. Everything you need in this life is within your own soul.
     
  17. kajolishot Registered Senior Member

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    627
    Mystee
    Why must he have a belief in anything?

    If anything, he believes in asking why. And not taking in mindless blabber without reason.

    Also, I suggest you follow his suggestions and actually FOLLOW your faith. You can't be a christian and just follow the NT. The bible is OT + NT.
     
  18. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    2,669
    Your so lucky to go to these places. My grandparents were luky enougth to go to St. Peters. I don't remember them describing it having prostitutes and stuft. Though they probably were not looking for inner peace, just the art work.

    No, I didn't say demon possessed. People hear these things all the time. Worse they think it's their own thoughts or mind, but it's not. Your story kind of reminds me of Judas and the woman who annointed Jesus. The gold probably was donated to the church or came from roman temples and been there for thousands of years. Anyways I have no doubt that everyone needs to be shaken up alittle bit. You've probably read the story of <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06221a.htm">St. Francis</a>. Besides we are the gold, "Refining them like gold or like silver that they may offer due sacrifice to the LORD."

    The french are almost always hateful towards tourist.
     
  19. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    8,346
    The French

    That's what I've heard from other Americans traveling in France, but I found them to be delightful. They were friendly, very personable, and welcoming. I guess I was a bit taken by the French. As I was walking on a street in Paris, this elderly gentleman came up to me, took my hand and kissed it, and told me I had the most beautiful blue eyes he'd ever seen! Wow! Did I ever love Paris!
     
  20. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    One of the key things that needs to be understood though, is that at some "stage" an unborn child must be considered a "person" in it's own rights. 1 in 3 first time pregnancies ends in miscarriage. Now, you tell them that they cannot name their son, or have a funeral because technically "it's not a child". My son died in his mothers womb. There were some arguments about whether my son could be recognised as a human being. Who the fuck has the right? For months i'd been feeling him move, listening to his heart beat and watching him suck his thumbs via sonograph. Do you, does anyone, have the right to tell me my child isn't classifiable as a human?

    In england it's 6 months before a child is considered so, so women can happily kill their children. What about the women who don't have a choice but to discard their children in the trashcan so someone else can kill theirs?

    I understand some women get raped etc etc but then there should be a line with regards to the women, not the children. The abortion queues would lessen and any "serious" cases could be dealt with swiftly- which not only causes less complications for the women, but for the unborn child aswell. Nowadays women are getting abortions simply because a child would interfere with their careers and shit like that. Nobody has to be an all knowledgable being to realise condoms exist. If that breaks, (in my country at least), the woman can go to the doctors and be given a free morning after pill.

    I almost got no choice to bury my son thanks to the law.
     
  21. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    Sure, and in England it's legal to give your child alcohol as long as he/she is over the age of 5. However, doing all these things isn't about a lack of childrens rights, it's a lack of caring on the parents side. You can't state that if a person doesn't want, or care for that child they can happily kill them, can you? So either way you cut it, they do have rights.

    I dunno.... i suppose experience plays a part. One needs to see a child drop dead in their arms before they can really debate the fine points of what is and what isn't classifible as a human.

    This seems to me like a weak shot at establishing a point by jumping off a ravine. I will in no way claim to be a learned medical practitioner, but there is an almighty difference between 3 months and "a day or two". You cannot compare a being that has passed through several stages of development to that of an egg that hasn't done bugger all.

    No, an egg does not have rights. (imo).

    I think that's a bit below the belt. I don't think i claimed having anything morally higher. It was my opinion based on experience.

    I wouldnt consider "anyone below 50 cant park on a yellow line" as being reason an unborn child can be killed. I think once everything has gone through the stages where you can visibly see a brain, it has the right to life.

    I'm not claiming to be right, that's just my opinion.

    The president, Chechnya, and Death Valley are completely irrelevant.

    Why is that of such worry to you?
     
  22. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,758
    You seem to have this idea that children, no matter how young, have no rights.. Tell me, if you slap your child can you not be jailed for doing so? What if it's just a 1 day old? Would the same not happen? Ergo: kids do have rights, albeit, they are at the mercy of adults, but also under the protection of adults. Just because they are not in position to defend themselves, doesn't mean they "lack rights". In saying i refer to "right of existence". If the child has a brain and is feeding, (something things do in order to survive), it has the right to life. ('Feeding' implies connection with the mother through which feeding/breathing etc are undertaken).

    One could argue that because the child is in essence simply leeching off it's mother, the mother has the say... But to me it's the opposite. Once a being has actively established the survival mechanism, it is the duty of the parent to ensure its survival, (or at least try damn hard).

    I am not in any way qualified to explain the ins and outs of pregnancy but in my view 6 months is a little late to decide to end a childs life.

    Ok, if you were to force a woman to have an unwanted child there would be extreme problems. It's not like the planet isn't screwed up enough as it is, without adding a whole heap of new "unwanteds" into the fray. The way it currently looks i doubt the system would be able to cope. However, what is therefore needed above all other things is education. There are preventative methods, and "after the fact" measures, (morning after pill).

    Instead, (in England at least), women are getting pregnant, not being concerned until months have passed, and then deciding a child would "ruin their career". When life itself means nothing in comparison to a bit of prestige and money then what is anything worth? There are always times when there is serious reason for the death of an unborn child, and i acknowledge that, but there are also times when it could have been prevented or sorted out in the very early stages.

    Eh? I do believe we were talking about a 1 day old egg. Of course, as you said, we all must draw a line.... Mine is just a lot lower than yours. Would you state a newborn is as important as a 3 month old? Yes, well now just lower it back a bit, and that's where i'm at.

    Well, i have spent my whole life as an avid lover of nature. The beauty of life itself- so i have always opposed abortion- and my stance has always been the same. The death of my son is yet another reason, but all a part of the same opinion.

    There was a woman in the hospital at the same time as my wife and i. Her child was force born at 5 months and given a very low survival probability- in fact pretty non existant. That child is still alive and celebrating her 4th next week. Now what if she hadn't have wanted the child, and got it killed at that stage? This life, this child running round learning so many things, doing so many things would be nothing but a bloodball in a bin liner.

    Ok it is rare that children of this age survive, but even that child has the right to be born and to grow up and see all that we have been lucky enough to see. Without the choice of the parents that child would most likely go full term and then be born just like any other human being. This 4 year old girl has the same rights as any other 4 year old, and had the same rights as any other child in existence even though she was technically 1 month too young to be considered a human being in her own right. Would that imply that the doctors should just let her die? Or would they fight-because life is life regardless of how small and insignificant you might seem. The minute doctors crowd around fighting to save something- you can be damned sure that is an individual life worth saving.

    Sure, there is a line that must be drawn somewhere... With proper education of people that line wouldn't have to be visited so often.
     
  23. Agent Smith Registered Senior Member

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    103
    Where does it say in the old testament that you can have an abortion.......
     

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