A Few Thoughts

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Ladybug, Jul 10, 2003.

  1. Ladybug Registered Member

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    25
    I just recently discovered this site and found the opinions very interesting. There are just a couple of things I think need to be said here.
    1. Do not confuse faith and belief systems with organized religions. Religious leaders are, first and foremost, human beings. They are not saints, gods, or anything different from you or me, and they are fallible.
    2. Religion (or lack thereof) is not out there for god. It is there for us. We (theists) are the ones who need the reassurance that there is someone out there who cares for us when we need it. Think of it as believing that your parents are just a phone call away.
    As far as who is right or wrong, why does anyone have to be wrong? Why do we assume that the Roman Catholic God is any different from the Protestant God or the Wiccan God? A rose by any other name...
     
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  3. Mystee Registered Senior Member

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  5. Mystee Registered Senior Member

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    You have some very good points and asside from this part

    I think you hit it right on the head.
     
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  7. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Ladybug,

    Welcome to sciforums.

    So it is reasonable to assume from those statements that God is inadequate to satisfy those needs by himself.

    OK I agree. Gods do not exist. Since you claim that no one needs to be wrong then I assume you agree with me, if you don’t then how would you explain your paradoxical disagreement.

    The God of Einstein was the universe itself and was never a being and that is fundamentally different to the personal god of Christianity. And the God of Deism is meant to have simply wound things up and is sitting back watching everything unfold without intervention. Of course there is also Zeus and Apollo.
     
  8. Circe Registered Senior Member

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    Cris,

    I think what she meant to convey here is that the concept of a caring, understanding, almost personal god is a human invention that may be a far cry from the real nature of god. It was designed to help us cope with our daily trials and to make some sense out of our existence. If god does exist, his nature is hidden, and therefore, it's not fair to say that he's unable to take care of our needs. He may be indifferent, for all we know.

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    You know what she's saying. She claims no religion is wrong as there's only one god. It's the interpretations of god that are multiple.

    See above
     
  9. Ladybug Registered Member

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    25
    If one or more gods exist, it is impossible to know the nature of him or her or them. Humans have had to "guess" at the true nature of god. If it is impossible to KNOW what god is like, how can god fault us for guessing wrong?
    I think it is far more important how you choose to live your life and how you treat others, not which religion you choose or don't choose.
     
  10. =SputniK-CL= Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry Ladybug, there seems to be a paradox in your last statement...

    "Humans have had to "guess" at the true nature of god. If it is impossible to KNOW what god is like, how can god fault us for guessing wrong?
    I think it is far more important how you choose to live your life and how you treat others, not which religion you choose or don't choose."

    As I see it, you are saying that all interpretations cant be deemed wrong because we do not understand God fully. Then you say its important to decide how you live your life. Well, these interpretations, also known as the different religions, tell you to live you life in a very specific manner. They conflict heavily. Wich do you believe? Are you suggesting a general guide to all religions?

    Also you are assuming there is a god. So far it would be very easy to argue that the existence of god is not likely. How I see it, you just proved my point in your opening post...God arises out of our need of comfort...
    Hope and isolation combine very easily to form God...
     
  11. Mystee Registered Senior Member

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    77
    God doesn't rise out of a need for comfort. Rather he created that need for comfort so we would go searching for him. There is a book and a song and numerous other things called "God shaped hole in my heart" Well what they mean is God created us with a need for him. We all go out into this world (consciously or subconsciously) looking for something to fill that hole, but nothing but God ever will. That is why there is rape and all sorts of new drugs, and many cool new ways of (spiritually or literaly) killing ourselves. People are searching for SOMETHING it doesn't take Einstien to see that. So why are the ones who have found it ignored? Probably because it's hard. it goes against the grain. But it's worth it. (Yes Cris that is just my opinion. No I can't prove it, but thanks for asking)


    Lots of Love,

    Mystee
     
  12. =SputniK-CL= Registered Senior Member

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    69
    Mystee,

    If you cannot support your views then whats the point of a debate?

    People are searching for the truth, Mystee, and I think you will find that most are turning away from God and the church. (As is happening in my community.) And no, this is not because of the human variable...people are just finding God not worth the effort.

    Let me ask you this: whats more comforting that the personification of perfection, the representation of infinite power?
    God was created in the image of man, for this is how man thinks he can relate to the unknown. A profound feeling of isolation is part of us as we are self-aware biengs searching for answers.

    The unknown doesnt justify a God...

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  13. Mystee Registered Senior Member

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    Sadly many people are turning from God. The reason for this is not because he doesn't exist (If this were true it would have ended a long time ago) rather the world is getting to easy to live in. Our society in America especialy shows this. When things that you would be killed for before are now exceptable, something is wrong. When children are taught evolution at a young age, but prayer is not allowed in school, something is wrong. There is a spiritual battle in all of us between the desires of the flesh and the desires of the soul. The flesh is easy to gratify and self serving. The soul is work. If life were really as easy as "do what you want as long as you don't hurt anyone else" I don't think I could trust it. It's to easy. No one said life was supposed to be easy. So as it gets more and more exceptably to gratify our flesh it seems harder and harder to serve the soul. We have been told it would be hard to be a believer in the last days. it is. It is not the fault of God that church has become boring. Nor is it the fault of God that all sorts of sins are seen as ok in the eyes of our culture. God hasn't changed. God hasn't been proved wrong. Rather the veiws of the world have changed to be more gratifying to the flesh.

    Love coming out the ears,

    Mystee
     
  14. Greco Registered Senior Member

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    394


    The unknown doesnt rule out a God....

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  15. =SputniK-CL= Registered Senior Member

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    Greco,

    "The unknown doesnt rule out a God...."

    I certainly know that, though the point is religion sais youll burn in hell if you do not accept its supposed truth, God exists, as absolute truth. I cannot accept this.

    Mystee,

    "The reason for this is not because he doesn't exist (If this were true it would have ended a long time ago) "

    I have very very very little doubt that through the ages religion has continued because of the doctrines and brainwashing that every child was subject to. The child immediately associates the unknown with God. You, of course, know how effective propaganda can be, dont you? These 'feelings' you have, they are beyond doubt?

    "When things that you would be killed for before are now exceptable, something is wrong."

    You seem to think humanity had the right idea and has now lost it. Im sure you would have been killed if, a few hundred years ago, you spoke out about racism, blind faith or anything else based on authority. I easily agree that there is a price to be payed for democracy, but its a price worth it in the long run, I think. Ill take logic above morals any day.

    "When children are taught evolution at a young age, but prayer is not allowed in school, something is wrong."

    Rather I believe something is right.
    I do think prayer should be allowed, but it should be silent, not forced on anyone. Im positive that when evolution is taught, it is done so as a modern theory, not forced upon anyone as the absolute truth but as a reliable and good explanation of what we know. You actually doubt evolution? Please be sure of this fact. Its no longer in any reasonable dispute. From every field of science comes proof of evolution. Please....use your common sense.

    "You are free to do whatever you want, as long as this does not interfere with the freedoms of other"
    If everyone would live according to this, the world would be a better place, better than your bible could ever make.

    "Rather the veiws of the world have changed to be more gratifying to the flesh."

    Yes, I see what u mean. Could you prove to me we are anything but flesh? For example: The bible sais you should treat your body as a temple. Tattooing has been thus said to be wrong by the church because it 'defiles' your body. What the modern age has give us is the liberty to act on the logic we have had for eons. This logic has been suppresed in the past. No rational person today will agree that ink under your skin is a sin, but moisturising your face isnt...

    Maybe a moot point, but really, you should look beyond your feelings. Maybe its your diet? How are you eating?
     
  16. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    13,433
    On the contrary. Most religions (Christianity in particular) create an image people are supposed to live up to that is humanly impossible, so it can go along telling followers that they are not worthy.
    Religions tell its followers that they are weak-willed, incourageable, sinful trash that can't take a single step in life on their own.
    It creates dependency through manipulation of self-worth and self-pride.
    And the followers eat the shit up with a spoon convinced it tastes like ice cream.

    It is a sickness.
    It makes me think of those sad women that stay in abusive relationships beleieving the man when he says that it is her fault that he beats, controls and emotionally abuses her with the pathetic excuse, "But he loves me".
     
  17. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Because the Roman Catholics, the Protestants, the Wiccans *laughs* and all other religions tell us so.

    Because if you have two opposing viewpoint both can't be correct.
    If both are not correct ONE must be wrong.

    However, no one will ever know who is right and who is wrong, therefore all organized religions are pointless wastes of time.
    No?
     
  18. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Re: A Few Thoughts

    Sorry, one_raven, but I'm not too sure there's a 'there' in your 'therefore'.

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  19. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Mystee,

    I am afraid that there is a far more fundamental and real explanation to that. Many species experience the same need for comfort, for security, and for procreation. It is that instinct that brings people and animals together. Wild dogs do the same thing, as do the primates etc. It is nothing divine just the simple very frequently observed result of an evolutionary process. It is this drive that makes people find a mate, a partner, a boyfriend etc., it is natural and doesn’t require a divine explanation.

    But a great many people do not or cannot find a mate for many reasons, or many that do, find the wrong ones; the net result is that many people often search for something more and they find it in religion, and it doesn’t matter that a god doesn’t exist providing the believer believes he exists. Far more, of course, find it in the company of pets like dogs and cats.

    I don’t begrudge you your comfort. Religion in that sense is very real. But modern society does offer many more alternatives to religion, in terms of a comfort factor, some are good and some are not so good. As religion becomes increasingly less attractive it is important that we as a society make a stronger effort to find healthier replacements rather than allow drugs or similar to be the norm. I think the internet and discussion forums like this do offer a real service and provide real comfort for many.

    Or turning away from the concept of god to be more precise. Remember there is nothing that indicates that any gods exist. It is only sad because society has not provided a readily available and obvious replacement.

    The crutch of religion will last a while longer because people will continue to need their comfort until evolution breeds it out of them.

    You need to explain that a bit more. Violence, theft, murder, muggings, have been around since man appeared on the planet, there is little new here. They all remain highly unacceptable.

    People can practice their religion in their homes and out of school. But I would agree that comparative religion should be taught in state schools since so many young people do not understand the significant role that religion plays in the world. As for evolution; this is probably the most important piece of science ever developed and it pervades many aspects of many sciences. To teach truth at a young age rather than fantasy seems significantly healthier than before.

    I think you may be speaking for yourself at least. There is no such battle within me.
     
  20. Mystee Registered Senior Member

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    Ok so you are saying evolution made this need for comfort? Hold that thought.

    Why would a fantasy need a replacement. When we are told Santa isn't real we don't go out and look for a replacement or turn to drugs to cope. Santa is a fantasy. When that fantasy is gone it is gone and nothing more is needed to replace him. But God is real and if you try to live without him you will need to find a replacement to fill that hole. Society will never be able to offer a suitable "replacement" for God.

    ok back to this evolution thing. At first you said a need for comfort was bred into us by evolution in order to encourage procreation. Now you are saying evolution will breed it out of us. How is this possible? when people accused Jesus of casting out deamons with the power of the devil he said

    Mark 3
    23 "How can satan drive out satan?
    24 If a kindgdom is devided against itself, it can not stand
    25 If a house is devided against itself that house cannot stand.
    26 And if satan oposes himself and is devided, he cannot stand; his end has come.

    If evolution is real and what you say is true, than it is working against itself and will destroy itself. Or there's the other alternative. That it is not real. You say God is something man made up to feel comforted. In the same way can you see that evolution was made up by man to comfort him because he will never understand the basics of life without God.

    Yes somethings are still seen as wrong, but things like living together before marrige, sex before marrige, and homosexuality are all exceptable in today's society. When a country has no laws it is nothing but chaos. Our country is slowly heading in that direction. Yes it is good to promote acceptance for the people caught in these sins, but promoting the act itself will only cause trouble.

    And who's to say evolution isn't the fantasy. It is still a THEORY. Not truth. Not proven. Not real. When impressionable young children are being decieved by the ones they respect, change is needed. Don't give me the argument the parents push christianity on children. Any true christian knows that you can not make the choice for someone to be a christian. You can only teach and encourage. If that's not how you were rasied that doesn't mean it is the way it was ment to be. And you are proof that no one can chose for you. We are taught that what we hear in shcool is true, but evolution, a THEORY, is taught as truth all over America. That's wrong.
    As for religion being taught in school. It is ultamatly a bad idea. Yes even if it includes chrisianity. What we hear in a public school should be nothing but truth. Even if you include christianity teaching many religions in one class only leads to confusion and a feeling that none are correct because they are so conflicting. Such a class only pulls people from religion all together. I've been in a class like that. In fact I became a christian about half way through it. If parents want their children to learn about religion they should send them to church or a private religious school; not public school.

    The best thing Satan ever did for himself was convince the world he doesn't exist.

    Lots of love,

    Mystee
     
  21. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Mytee,

    Evolution is fact, it is real, it has occured, it cannot be denied. Evolutionary theories are attempts to describe the processes that enabled Evolution to occur.

    More later on the rest of your post.
     
  22. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
    -The Usual Suspects
     
  23. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Mystee,

    If we drop the D we have EVIL.

    So from this -

    We get –

    The best thing EVIL did for itself was to convince the world that God does exist.

    Because DEATH is the ultimate loss, and for people to be convinced that DEATH is but a gateway to something better has to be the biggest con trick ever and the greatest evil anyone can imagine.
     

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