God exists

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by (L), Jul 9, 2003.

  1. (L) Registered Member

    Messages:
    4
    I was reading post "No God ???", and came out with some ideas.
    You were talking about santa claus, aliens...But anyway what makes God different from them ?
    We belive that God is a creator of universe.He created life, and death.
    But lets go back to big bang.What caused "Big Bang" ? When you are playing at home with explosive devices, you have to
    do something to cause explosion.Nothing happens without "cause". God is "cause" of everything.
    Just try to figure out what gave you the power, to be the way you are (probably highly intelligent creature).
    Billions years ago there were only very primitive forms of life on Earth. Today, around us we see extremly complicated
    forms of life.Is "mother nature" enough powerful to do that ? No.
    20 000 - 30 000 years ago, people in caves, were drawing some things wich were presenting God.
    They were enough smart to figure out that out there,there is something more powerful than them.Only retarded primitives
    werent able to notice that.
    And today we still belive in It.
    There is only one god.There are only many names for him.
    For example "Allah" on Arabian means God.
    God is only one.
    And he exists.Altough we can not prove that, but we also can not prove that he does not exist.
    And yeah, why did God created Universe ?
    Because God loves to create.And he gave us that, power to create.
    When child is born, and few years later, when he can speak,talk....
    You dont tell him " Killing people is bad,my son!". But anyway as he is older, he realises that "killing is bad" .
    Why ?
    Because he is here to create, not to destroy, and God gave him that power.
    There is no reason to not belive in God, you cannot lose anything, and if he exists, better for you.
    Sorry on bad english.
     
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  3. DJSupreme23 neocortex activated Registered Senior Member

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    God is but a word.

    I have not seen a God or any actions of a goc, that cannot be explaimed by science or psychology.

    Neitehr have I heard, tasted, smelled or felt any such inputs.

    "Is "mother nature" enough powerful to do that ? No." [create advanced life in 5 bln. years].

    I claim otherwise. It is actually unsurprising that we are here after 5 billion years of evolution.

    A simple increase in complexity ( a given scale, you could define it as, say shemical or molecular complexity), of, say 1% every one million years, would evolve very rapidly after just one billion years. And yet, 5 have passed.

    I have no problems with living in a universe, where my life seems liek a coincidence.
     
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  5. Ectropic Registered Senior Member

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    195
    Okay, here we go. Let me be the one to give out the cliché arguments...

    What created God? You argue that we are to complex to be from evolution, but I would think that god is infinitely more complex than a simple human. It must have taken a God God to make it!

    Why do you think atheism is on the rise? I would say it is because the level of education we receive is growing with each passing decade. Most likely someday in the not to distant future it will be "quaint" to still be religious.

    Take a step back from faith (belief without proof) and think for a second. Couldn't you see religion being created as an answer for what we don't understand? Why do you think religions are drastically different all over the world? People are scared. They are scared of death and what happens to them. It's hard to just accept that you are no more once you die, so we make ourselves believe that we will be reincarnated, or that we will pass a test with St. Peter and play cloud shuffleboard for all eternity.

    I don't think being religious makes you unintelligent by any means (My girlfriend is Catholic and I think she is one of the wittiest people I know), I just think that for humanity as a whole we will move past this part of human history and start to actually look and see what's out there instead of believing what people 3000 years ago told us about the universe.

    One more point, if God is all knowing, all powerful and without time then he knows everything that has happen and everything that will happen. Wouldn't you say that we are talking about destiny? If there is destiny then God just fooled you in to thinking that you have free will.

    Okay two more points... If God loves to create then what was he doing before he made us? What will he do after? Why would he need to do it more than once? I know that God would not need to keep trying because he always knows the exact outcome. If I could give God a present, I would give him a surprise.

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  7. (L) Registered Member

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    God wasnt created. He always existed and he will always exist.


    We dont understand many things, but is it true that 20 000 years humanity is going in wrong way, i mean
    20 000 years we belive in something that actually doesnt exist ?

    I agree, but thats lameness of people. St. Peter and other were, no doubt, great people, but things like, reincarnation,
    hell, heaven, eternity, are just product of peoples imagination.Because they`re afraid to die...


    I dont think humans will ever figure out universe.Some things are just to big for our minds.
    People in Bible werent talking about Universe. You dont know how to read Bible.
    If you read "God created Universe in 7 days", that doesnt mean that he actually did that in 7 days, 7 days are just a
    symbol for something.You dont read Bible as you read Lord of the Rings.



    If God is all knowing, all powerful and without time, and he knows everything that has happened, and that will happen,
    it is not neccesary that he is playing with us like with toys.He simply lets us to have free will.


    Universe is really complicated. Is there more than one Universe ?

    You wouldnt, because he would know what is your present.
     
  8. Ectropic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    195
    I think that the Universe always existed and has always existed. There is no need for a god.
    Correct.
    But most religions teach that you have to believe in what they are telling you to get in to heaven. Not to mention repenting sins and hoping you make it to church before you die with a sin on your back.
    I understand that you have to read teh symbolism in the bible. If you really believe that too then you can see that the bible is giving us poor saps a father figure to keep us under control. I'm not a conspiracy nut or anything like that, but I can see how rulers would benefit from a book like the Bible being worshipped. People are easier to control when eterninty in a fiery pit is at stake.
    You cannot have free will when the future is already determined. I might as well just lay around and do nothing because the same thing will happen no matter what I do.
    I don't know. Yes? Is there more than one God? How many universes are enough for God to create? Does that mean that humans aren't special at all? Does that hean that God gave a son to every civilization in all of infinity? I think that the if that were true this phrase would be in the bible for John 3:16 and maybe not too many goof balls at monster truck rallys would hold up signs telling us to read it.

    John 3:16
    "For God so loved the world that he gave one out of his infinite supply of Sons, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
    Yeah, that was a joke....
     
  9. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    L,

    Welcome to sciforums.

    Some quick notes.

    We don’t know what caused the BB.

    We don’t know if the BB is the only BB or if it is just one within an infinite number of BBs.

    If you argue for cause and effect then you must explain who caused God and the creator of the creator of the creator etc. Otherwise you may as well say the universe is infinite and hence there is no need for a creator god.

    The evolutionary processes that gave rise to humans do explain how complexity arises from simpler states. There is no evidence that anything complex was ever designed by anything intelligent.

    Primitive peoples created the idea of a god because they were ignorant about the laws of physics and didn’t know any better.

    As science makes progress fewer and fewer people believe the superstitions of religion.

    Without proof of god all you have is a worthless imaginative fantasy equal in value to leprechauns, fairies, and Santa Claus.

    There is every reason not to believe in gods since it is a total waste to time that people could be using to solve real problems.
     
  10. Zero Mass Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    298
    Nothing, god, santa, aliens visiting Earth, ghosts, pyschics, loch ness monster, faith healing, and big foot are all myths created by the irrational, illogical, "magic" part of out mind. The same parts of the human brain believes in superstitions.
    God was created by man to fulfill his inadequacies about human existence. God is the ultimate myth, the end all answer to the life we live.
    “Why do people die? Why did the volcano erupt? Why do good things happen to bad people?” All can be simply answered by one unifying thought process- There is an all-powerful, all-knowing invisible force that bends his will over the cosmos. He has reasons for everything that happens in your life.
    God is used to control people, “If you are good in this life, then you will be eternally rewarded in the afterlife.”
    God is comforting, to have a God looking out for you makes you feel protected and safe.
    God is only in our minds. It is a myth.

    I believe some of the other sciforumers answered this question very well. First off, the Big bang might be a circular process, and then there is always the “what created god” argument. Although I have already answered that- Man’s over active and fragile mind created god.


    The theory of evolution more than explains how we can get from simple to complex life forms, no outside force is needed


    Yes, the idea was assuring and mainly played into the “magic” side of our primitive minds

    No they were not. I don’t know about you, you dumb retarded primitive, but I like to think that I am smarter than my cave-dwelling ancestors. Today we still believe because we have to hold on to our superstitions of yesteryear even though science has given us significant information in order to go past most modern myths.

    Myth, myth, myth. Something that cannot be proven to exist, does not exist. My reasoning is much more sound, man created god to explain away the details of life. My theory is more sound that a omnipotent creator that is impossible to see, hear or taste (thanks DJSupreme)

    No, I think the millions of people who have died at the end of a smoking gun would disagree with that statement.

    This is a very bad reason to abandon reason and embrace superstition. The “If I’m wrong then none’s to blame, If you’re wrong you burn in hell” argument. Thanks, but no thanks idiot.
    -ZERO MASS
     
  11. VitalOne Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,716
    Time to argue once again.......

    True, but the theory of evolution doesn't explain why things mutate (randomness) , why things are programmed to survive, reproduce, fear death, and why chemicals work the way they do (the explanation is that they just do).


    It is only what is in our minds that exists,

    Then nothing exists

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    Every superstitution or legend starts from somewhere , a fairy could've been started from a fire fly or something, Santa Claus started from some fat kind guy, so god had to come from somewhere. It is not natural for humans to think of a more powerful higher being. Imagination? Perhaps, but almost every legend started from somewhere.
     
  12. Zero Mass Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    298
    The theory does explain all that and more (except for the chemical thing, which is a branch of science called CHEMISTRY, under the theory of evolution that information is taken as truth as it deals with another branch of science.) Also chemicals just work because they do? Have you ever taken chemistry in school? Its much more complicated than that genius. Gravity just works? Does that mean god did it? No.
    Mutation, or randomness, is the main basis (although not the entirety) of the theory of evolution. Mutation provides for diversification within a species, which provides for adaptability within an ecosphere, which helps to protect the species survival in a harsh and changing environment, like the planet Earth.
    Why things are programmed to survive is simple, the will to survive is created with the will to procreate. That ties in with the will to mutate and grow as a species. The reason that an animal changes is so it is the best possible variation for its environment, so their numbers will flourish and they will not become extinct. The will to survive come out of this need to adapt in order to overcome adversity.

    Have you ever studied the theory of evolution? Because your questioning an area of science without significant prior study makes you look stupid.

    That is a question for the philosophy section.
    Does the observable need an observer, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there the hear it, does it make a sound?

    I am talking about the existence of corporal things (you and I, your computer, a tree) that can be observed and proven to exist in the natural world. Gods and other supernatural phenomenon do not fit under this category.
    God is outside the sphere of human knowledge, and so I consider myself academically agnostic, although my beliefs and keen sense of logic (razor-sharp logic) steer me towards atheism.

    Wow, your logical reasoning is about as sharp as fetid cheese. Where did you come up with this theory of all stupid superstitions having a reasonable basis? Even if five million superstitions had such a basis, does that mean that ever-single legend has a basis? No, so your point is moot.
    God does come from somewhere; it comes from the frail human psyche that demands explanation for what it cannot understand. Gods, and a number of other superstitions also come from a part of our brain that wishes the impossible to be true, a "magic" side of the human brain that is leftovers from our ape-like ancestors.
    Every legend did start somewhere; it was normally a natural occurring phenomenon that was given a supernatural explanation because the natural sciences could not explain it.

    Where did that thunderclap come from??? Gods are bowling
    Where did my green bowler go??? A dirty leprechaun must have stole it.
    This problem persists into our modern age:
    What set off the big bang? What sparked life from the primordial soup?
    If science cannot explain a factual event or occurrence, then the answer is inexorably placed on God, we as humans still believe in hogwash superstitions, but in no way does that make them real or offer them any validity.
    Some people believe eating watermelon seeds makes them grow in your stomach, some people thought the moon was made of cheese...blahblahblah. Some people believe in god, I still don't see any reason to believe in something that does not exist.

    -ZERO MASS
     
  13. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    5,946
    Once again Cris shows why the argument fails, and it is just ignored.
     
  14. Bridge Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    291
    I humbly disagree.

    First of all they're only superstitions to you and like thinkers. Religion doesn't discount one's intelligence. A good number of scientists today are theists. Many of the best minds in scientific history were theists. Many religious people who believe in the theory of evolution do so with one caveat--- they do not accept that the universe and life in general, in all of its immensity and complexity, is the product of a ridiculously impossible number of permutations and combinations all based on chance and coincidence.


    The average person doesn't look at a new scientific discovery and say to themselves, "Oh no, that's it, God is dead!"

    If your claim is true then I would like to see the corroborating statistics to prove it. Bring it on babe.

    Scientific progress has nothing to say about issues of ultimate origin, meaning, or morality. For such answers, science is dependent on the values and personal beliefs of those who use it. Science, therefore, has great potential for both good and evil. It can be used to make vaccines or poisons, nuclear power plants or nuclear weapons. It can be used to clean up the environment or to pollute it. It can be used to argue for God or against Him. Science by itself offers no moral guidance or values to govern our lives. All science can do is show us how natural law works, while telling us nothing about its origins.

    Oh, but I forgot, this forum is home to the anti-God squad.

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    Carry on.

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  15. //drift I've Seen it. . .It's Rubbish Registered Senior Member

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    aah, good ol' pascal's wager, hmm?
    But if god is all-knowing, then aren't people sticking to this going to have a little bit of trouble explaining their disgustingly selfish 'belief' once they step up to the pearly gates? If you try to believe because if it's all true you'll be better off than if you didn't, doesn't that make you a coward? And won't god see through this and punish you? (I don't think (L) implied that they do use this reasoning for their beliefs, just those that do, I suppose they must be out there for Pascal's wager to be so popular.)
    pah.


    But really we just rearrange.




    This seems to be what your average thiest argument boils down to, and i've heard it enough times to make me want to vomit.

    HOOWWW can you Possibly talk about cause in Pre-existence/universe terms??????? Pre-universe (if there was even a beginning), there would not have been laws that exist in the current universe. The idea of cause/time/creation pre-'big bang' seems nonsensical to me. I don't even see pre-BB ideas as worth bothering with, as because we DO [apparently] exist, how can you even begin to speculate realistically as to what came before laws of existance and Being ('before' wouldn't even apply, as there will have been no progression of 'moments').
    bAaah

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    ROARRrr

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  16. VitalOne Banned Banned

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    2,716
    Chemistry explains that chemicals try to become noble gases, it explains that the chemicals want to become stable, it does not explain why they want to become stable (noble gases), where or how all of the elements were created. The need of the need is unknown.

    Evolution explains how things mutate and what it causes (substitutions, deletetions, insertions) but not why it occurs, it is simply a random act and randomly happens according to evolution.

    You basically said, things survive because they want to reproduce. Does that explain why they want to reproduce? No it doesn't , at all. They survive to keep their species alive. That doesn't explain why they want to keep their species alive. If you can't explain why they want to reproduce, then you can't explain the reason for survival (since the reason is to reproduce).

    "The reason that an animal changes is so it is the best possible variation for its environment" thats wrong, an animal mutates randomly, and its mutation can either be good or bad. If its mutation is better, then it will survive and flourish, if its mutation is worse, it will die out. It doesn't will itself to evolve and evolve.

    I have , and I do have prior knowledge. You're the one that seems to not have prior knowledge.

    I didn't, I never even stated that they had a reasonable basis. I'm just saying that everything comes from something. You said "Where did that thunderclap come from??? Gods are bowling " the idea of gods are bowling came from a thunderclap.
     
  17. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,946
    Originally posted by Bridge
    Scientific progress has nothing to say about issues of ultimate origin, meaning, or morality.
    Very good. I accept that science is not good in these areas. I also completely accept your belief in a religion that sticks to these areas. However, no religion does this.

    Science, therefore, has great potential for both good and evil.

    As does religion, and anything else that requires people to believe without reason.

    All science can do is show us how natural law works, while telling us nothing about its origins.

    Fine, but this 'ultimate origin' would, ultimately, be before the big bang or whatever else we find. Therefore, don't complain when we disagree when you say something about the here and now which is just plain false.
     
  18. Zero Mass Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    298
    You don't have to be superstitious to believe in god, but like all people who believe in the supernatural, you have to suspend reason and reality, and the same thing happens when a person believes in a superstition.
    Many scientists are theists; science has nothing to do with myth however. You cannot prove or disprove something that is supernatural, you can however rationalize that because you cannot prove it to exist, then it probably does not exist-like god.

    Scientists who believe in intelligent design are not very intelligent. There is no proof, no logical reason, and oodles of information on the contrary.
    Please do not make me repeat myself on the theory of evolution.

    They should if the scientific discovery discounts what god had previously explained. Like creationism, the theory of evolution destroyed creationism, which is a major part of the intelligent design theory. When creationism was destroyed (and it was, thoroughly) there was more than enough reason to not believe in god. Evolution provides an answer to the "How did we get here?" question that before had been in the corner of creationism and religion. So I think that Nietzsche had a right to proclaim that after Darwin published his theory.

    Are you denying the fact that a greater percentage of people are atheist today than they were before the theory of evolution? I will hunt for the statistics if you want, but that is common sense.

    Ultimate Origin: It has figured out how human life came into existence (QED, theory of evolution)
    Meaning and Morality: These are both totally human constructs based primarily on emotion and not reason/logic, thus they do not fall under the category of science. They are more Philosophical points, and religious philosophers (Like Jesus Christ) have made progress in defining our lives through thought.

    Science is not dangerous because it is dependent upon values and personal beliefs; it is actually, in part by definition, very independent of such virtues.
    Science is not influenced by good and evil, human beings who use science are influenced by that two-headed viper. Who uses the poison and the nuclear bomb? -Humans


    No, science has told us where human life came from, and I agree with you on the fact that it does not in any way produce mores and values, although it does directly influence life and the way we determine to govern our lives. Science can only tell us about the natural world, correct.
    It tells us that it is highly unlikely that god exists, so should we live our lives according to a myth? No. Trying to push science away in order to promote religion doesn't work because the two have nothing to do with each other.

    Where do I sign up for this squad? I want to be the parliamentarian

    -ZERO MASS
     
  19. Zero Mass Registered Senior Member

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    298
    The most stable energy form normally means less energy, and less energy is the "desired" state that the universe tends to favor. But like I said, that is certifiably independent from Evolution.

    No it is not all randomness. The theory (If you have read it, which I doubt like snow in the Sahara) states that random selection is the method used by Evolution to effect changes in species, but it is adaptability to surrounding that makes a species survive.
    It occurs because there is a need to change with the environment, which is constantly changing (tides, seasons, ice ages, continental drift). If the world were the same everywhere and unchanging, then it is quite possible that we would never have evolved at all.


    They want to reproduce to ensure the survival of the species, if you go back (theoretically) to the first organism ever, then maybe it didn't have this common animal drive, maybe it was just chance. But whatever the case, over the millennia, the will to survive and reproduce has evolved.

    No, I am right. The reason that animals mutate is to try to make a better (i.e. more adaptable) version of its former self. If it is more adaptable, then it flourishes, if it doesn't then it goes the way of the dodo. I think that is what I meant even if I didn't type it.

    Have you read Darwin? I have.

    But since the superstition is what is not true, but an illogical basis for a natural occurrence, why attribute the natural world to the supernatural idea of god?

    -ZERO MASS
     
  20. fuzztam Registered Member

    Messages:
    5
    gay hole

    get a life u tree huging hippies

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    :m: THERE IS NO GOD science proov everything, i'll tell u hhwat. any one can proove me wrong.. bring it on
     
  21. Bridge Registered Senior Member

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    291
    How much of reality is determined within the beholders mind?Hawkings didn't suspend his reason and logic when he wrote "A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME" wherein he described black holes and other space oddities. To the best of my knowledge no one has seen a black hole but I'm quite sure you readily believe in them anyhow.

    I guess your academic credentials must be pretty impressive.

    Why? Is there anything worth repeating?

    I'm all ears and eyes....how did we get here?

    No, I'm saying scientific discoveries, have not and are not persuading people in significant numbers to discard their faith. I'm open to reviewing the statistics if you wish to prove otherwise. Keep in mind people can make statistics say whatever they want them to; if you weren't religious or spiritually inclined to begin with that's a different story, then science may substitute faith in that individual's life.

    I have yet to read any scientific abstracts or journals which have statistically concluded one way or the other about God's existence. I'm not pushing science away, you're trying to tell us science has answered all our questions and I can't disagree more strongly.

    Our universe and life in general is all about contrasts and opposites. Light versus darkness, heat vs. cold, ying and yang, good and evil, life and death. General relativity shows that under certain reasonable assumptions, an expanding universe like ours must have begun as a singularity. Will science determine what "was" before that singularity? Scientific and theological inquiries run parallel courses in the pursuit of satisfying that answer.
     
  22. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    5,946
    Originally posted by Bridge
    How much of reality is determined within the beholders mind?Hawkings didn't suspend his reason and logic when he wrote "A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME" wherein he described black holes and other space oddities.
    The difference is that Hawking's opinions were based on scientific observation, and are falsifiable. (IE: we can eventually tell if he was right) He also fully admitted that he may be wrong, and in some cases was.

    To the best of my knowledge no one has seen a black hole but I'm quite sure you readily believe in them anyhow.

    We have seen the direct results of them... which is more then can be said of God.

    No, I'm saying scientific discoveries, have not and are not persuading people in significant numbers to discard their faith.

    I havce to agree with you here. I know of people who did change their mind based on what they learned... but that does not seem to be the majority.

    I have yet to read any scientific abstracts or journals which have statistically concluded one way or the other about God's existence.

    You can not statistically put a number on the existence of god any more then you can the existence of an invisible pink unicorn. It is pointless to try and support something that has no proof or impact on your life.

    Our universe and life in general is all about contrasts and opposites. Light versus darkness, heat vs. cold, ying and yang, good and evil, life and death.

    Clasic over simplification. People only percieve life in this way because that is how they were taught the world worked.

    General relativity shows that under certain reasonable assumptions, an expanding universe like ours must have begun as a singularity. Will science determine what "was" before that singularity?

    Actually GR doesn't, but science may be capable of saying what was before the big bang (not soon though).

    Scientific and theological inquiries run parallel courses in the pursuit of satisfying that answer.

    Hell with being parallel. They are in completely different domains. One deals with predicting the future (science), on deals with predicting things humans will never see (faith).
     
  23. Bridge Registered Senior Member

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    291
    We hope we can eventually tell if he was right.

    That's an opinion you're entitled to hold. My opinion differs slightly: Everything you see is a direct result of God including the blackholes you've never seen.

    I appreciate your candor and honesty.

    Yeah, that's what I was implying too with exception of that last part about impacting your life. What the heck is it with unicorn's and santa clauses ever time God gets dragged into the debate?

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    Life was meant to be simple, we tend to do our complicating.

    According to Hawkings it does, but that's not my forte. String Theory dabbles into what may as well be labelled supernatural.

    Einstein said it best: "Science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind."
     

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