Worshiping saints, sinister practice

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by GodLied, Jul 8, 2003.

  1. GodLied Registered Senior Member

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    In the Holy Bible there is one god called God. He is the only one to worship. Why then do Xians, Catholics and others make images of saints to worship? They are in violation of their own religion. They live in perpetual sin and will, according to God's Word, go to Hell.

    GodLied.
     
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  3. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    I am a Christian and I have never seen this in practice.
     
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  5. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    The catholic's do not worship saints. We specifically ask the saints to pray with us. For example, at the end of the hail mary we say "Holy mother of God, pray for us now and at the hour of our death." Reverance towards God and towards a saint are two different things.

    Please show me where it says that idol worshipers go to hell?
     
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  7. GodLied Registered Senior Member

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    I recall idolatry as a sinister practice somewhere in the Old Testament where God established Himself by mandating everyone else to stop their then current religious beliefs to start believing in God as the one and only God. Every Christian bearing jewelry with a crucifix, any Catholic with a Mary night light, anyone with images of Biblical and post Biblical figures for purpose of worship, assistance or anything else which should only be directed towards God, practices idolatry which is sinister and will send said people to Hell according to God's word. Therefore, every church containing figures of Biblical figures is a sinister church wherein all of its members will go to Hell. Such a convenient arrangement allows limited clutter in Heaven because churches have used idolatry of Jesus for centuries.

    Can you just read the Old Testament to find the part where idolatry is banned? I gave you guidance to search half of the Holy Bible.

    GodLied

    GodLied.
     
  8. GodLied Registered Senior Member

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    Any member of your congregation who bears a crucifix pendant with Jesus on it, is committing idolatry. Idolatry is sinister. Said people, according to God's word go to Hell.

    Any church containing a statue of Jesus on a crucifix is committing idolatry. All members of said congregation will go to Hell according to God's word.

    If you never saw a crucifix in a church, never saw people wearing jewelry bearing likeness of Jesus, you have lived in a limited exposure environment.

    GodLied.
     
  9. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    GodLied, you obviously do not read the bible or study so why are you trying to make statements like this? First of all, Jesus said that every sin except blasphemy against the holy spirit can be forgiven. So that means that even idolatry can be forgiven. I'm not sure why you think that making or viewing statues is some how sinful. God instructed Moses to build a statue of a snake and the ark of the convenant had statues of cherubin.
     
  10. Mystee Registered Senior Member

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    77
    Truth

    Well, though I can see where you're coming from, Some of your arguments don't hold up. For example Jesus IS GOD we can worship Jesus as was should. Yes a tool of the devil is to get people hooked on a certain image so they can't pray unless they are by a certain painting or whatever, but they are simply being deceived as is most of America today. God WILL forgive them and God will help them out of it, but they are in no way going to Hell for it. I know you are just trying to stir us up, but I figured I would reply with some truth anyway.
     
  11. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    I've never seen someone get hooked on a certain painting. I suppose that it is possible, but from many accounts of exorcism things like rosaries, crucifixes, and medals protect us from the devil by reminding us of Jesus. For the most part, it is nothing more than keeping a picture of the family. Yes that person may even kiss the picture, but all is done knowing that it is a picture.
     
  12. Mystee Registered Senior Member

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    77
    Yes you are right. But I was trying to see the other point of veiw for a second. I know people who wont pray outside of their house because it doesn't feel right not looking at the crusafix that's hanging on their wall. That kind of action is a tool of the devil. But thank you for your response. It is good to hear another Christian voice (I'm kind of assuming, my apoligies if I am wrong). I was begining to think I was the only one bold enough to post.
     
  13. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    IS Jesus GOD? That depends on which verse you read.
     
  14. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    Jesus is fully a man and God. Your confusion with Paul's gospel is that he uses God to mean only the Father. However by calling Jesus savior and judge he in effect called Jesus God because Isaiah and Hosea say that God is our only Savior and the pslams say that God is our only Judge.
     
  15. Mystee Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    77
    thanks for covering that one.

    Well the clock says 2:00 am, so It's about time for me to hit the hay.

    Filled with Love,

    Mystee
     
  16. Agent Smith Registered Senior Member

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    103
    It is not worship of saints, it is asking saints to ask God for something.
     
  17. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    3,833
    This reflects the early Protestant reformation, when all the customary Catholic adornments were dropped in favour of soli Deo and soli scriptura. Churches became plain square buildings with a clock tower at the most. The Lutheran church did keep a simple cross in the front of the church as a symbol, and even this was also left out by some churches, lest unbelievers like you could accuse them of praying to it when they they saw everbody facing it while praying.

    But for many people this led to a lack of symbolism and the liturgy (the presentation of the Message) suffered, and since accusations were being thrown around regardless, some Reformed churches started reintroducing some customs. The Greek Orthodox church relies heavily on the 'mystical experience of God', with heavy use of 'icons' - small portraits of the saints - and church music to create a sense of associating and 'sharing space' with God and everybody who believes in Him. Protestant churches do not hold the "saints" or Mary in any higher regard than any other Christian. They were ordinary people, and everybody are just as blessed by the salvation Christ heralded as they were. They also believe that the Holy Spirit appeals to God for their sins (as described in the Bible), and that it is not necessary for priests to do it.

    I believe this was the first reason why different 'denominations' started appearing. Some people said no, the Bible should stand between the pastor and the congregation to signify symbolically how the Bible is primary. Some said the pastor should turn his back to the congregation when praying to show that he was "part of the church" and not any better than them. All these things became so important that people unfortunately lost some perspective.

    And why? Just so as not to cause anybody to be able to acccuse them of being idolatrous. This is what fear does: it separates people. No wonder the devil is called Satan, "the false Accuser".

    In the end, idolism is practiced in the heart my friend.

    PS. You probably don't know the irony of your name: In German, Afrikaans, and probably also Dutch, Flemish and Norse it says "God Song". I also have to read your posts first to remember you're not a Christian.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2003
  18. Agent Smith Registered Senior Member

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    103
    Images and representations help personalize God and his word to us. Notice that their is no images or representations of God the father, But Jesus, walked on earth, and those images show that He too faced tempation, He too was human yet he was God. The cross is not to be worshiped. It is a symbol that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and therefore triumphed agasint satan and his followers. It is the symbol for our salvation.
     
  19. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

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    Not many people appreciate symbolism anymore, unfortunately

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  20. GodLied Registered Senior Member

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    Why not ask God directly?

    GodLied.
     
  21. GodLied Registered Senior Member

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    According to the second commandment, EXODUS 20:4, God said one should not bow down before idols in the image of anything. Therefore, in accordance with God's commandment, God lovers are not to bow down to images of anything including saints, Jesus, and Mary.

    GodLied
     
  22. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

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    2,007
    For the sake of clarity ...

    Idolatry - image-worship or divine honour paid to any created object. Paul describes the origin of idolatry in Rom. 1:21-25: men forsook God, and sank into ignorance and moral corruption (1:28).

    The forms of idolatry are, (1.) Fetishism, or the worship of trees, rivers, hills, stones, etc.

    (2.) Nature worship, the worship of the sun, moon, and stars, as the supposed powers of nature.

    (3.) Hero worship, the worship of deceased ancestors, or of heroes.

    In Scripture, idolatry is regarded as of heathen origin, and as being imported among the Hebrews through contact with heathen nations. The first allusion to idolatry is in the account of Rachel stealing her father's teraphim (Gen. 31:19), which were the relics of the worship of other gods by Laban's progenitors "on the other side of the river in old time" (Josh. 24:2). During their long residence in Egypt the Hebrews fell into idolatry, and it was long before they were delivered from it (Josh. 24:14; Ezek. 20:7). Many a token of God's displeasure fell upon them because of this sin.

    The idolatry learned in Egypt was probably rooted out from among the people during the forty years' wanderings; but when the Jews entered Palestine, they came into contact with the monuments and associations of the idolatry of the old Canaanitish races, and showed a constant tendency to depart from the living God and follow the idolatrous practices of those heathen nations. It was their great national sin, which was only effectually rebuked by the Babylonian exile. That exile finally purified the Jews of all idolatrous tendencies.

    The first and second commandments are directed against idolatry of every form. Individuals and communities were equally amenable to the rigorous code. The individual offender was devoted to destruction (Ex. 22:20). His nearest relatives were not only bound to denounce him and deliver him up to punishment (Deut. 13:20-10), but their hands were to strike the first blow when, on the evidence of two witnesses at least, he was stoned (Deut. 17:2-7). To attempt to seduce others to false worship was a crime of equal enormity (13:6-10). An idolatrous nation shared the same fate.

    No facts are more strongly declared in the Old Testament than that the extermination of the Canaanites was the punishment of their idolatry (Ex. 34:15, 16; Deut. 7; 12:29-31; 20:17), and that the calamities of the Israelites were due to the same cause (Jer. 2:17). "A city guilty of idolatry was looked upon as a cancer in the state; it was considered to be in rebellion, and treated according to the laws of war. Its inhabitants and all their cattle were put to death." Jehovah was the theocratic King of Israel, the civil Head of the commonwealth, and therefore to an Israelite idolatry was a state offence (1 Sam. 15:23), high treason. On taking possession of the land, the Jews were commanded to destroy all traces of every kind of the existing idolatry of the Canaanites (Ex. 23:24, 32; 34:13; Deut. 7:5, 25; 12:1-3).

    In the New Testament the term idolatry is used to designate covetousness (Matt. 6:24; Luke 16:13; Col. 3:5; Eph. 5:5).

    Source: Easton's Bible Dictionary

    See also: Catholic Encyclopedia: Idolatry
     
  23. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    Begging dead holy people for favors

    This disempowers the Spirit of God in the individual whom, obviously, has not reached an adequate level of self-actualization. I speak as a recovering Catholic. My God is not "out there." My God, my creator lives within me and makes me who I am. If I pray to some dead Xian to ask God for something I want, I would totally dispel the power of the Spirit of God in me. My God is here with me always. All I need is to think (pray) and believe with expectant faith that my God has heard my prayers. I do not need a dead holy person to intercede for my needs and wants, and I do not need a "savior" to die for me. I am perfectly capable of being responsible for my own life. When God said, "I am the Lord your God, you shall not have any other gods before me," describes the Spirit of God in each of us--if we accept it. To credit other gods in the universe for what we already have totally defeats the purpose of our existence here on Earth!

    Also, when God said to Moses, "I am that I am," he was simply trying to tell Moses when he asked, "who are you?" We all can say, "I am that I am." God is within each of us and we are within God. Of course, Moses didn't understand this concept. Like most religions teach that God is "somewhere out there," but God is there inside of you. He has always been there.
     

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