Somethings been bothering me since I got here but I couldn't quite figure out what it was. I'm starting to realise as I read the atheist's posts that the thing bothering me is me. Because I am just like you guys. Heres the problem; We are too non-chalant(sp?) about this whole "existence" thing. We are so caught up in this 'battle' with the theists that we are cheapening the truely mysterious nature of the universe. We seem scared to admit anything is wierd about it because we fear it will be a segue for the theists to say "god did it" again. I'm proposing we forget about them and start arguing with eachother, they really aren't worth the restrictions we are putting on ourselves. Ok I'm getting a bit dramatic here but it is a problem. We are so jaded. I'm not saying I would have prefered the mystery and ignorance that shrouded peoples minds in the dark ages but we are becoming cold and sterile for no reason. Science is giving us answers but not really, its giving us the instruction manual on the mechanics of reality but it doesn't really explain anything more. Just because there was a big bang doesn't mean there was just a big bang if you know what I mean. If I used the methods used to describe the big bang to describe you, YOU would sound like an event. I'm saying the standard scientific view is all so mechanical and sterile. It explains everything and nothing all at the same time. I know what you are thinking, I'm having some kind of life-crisis or something but no, its more than that. I'm not thinking about myself, I don't care about an afterlife or a god, this has nothing to do with that, I'm not dying and even if I was I wouldn't wimp out like that. This is about the universe with or without my conscious mind. I just think we are being flagrantly shortsighted in thinking a logical explanation is a finished piece of work.
At core, fundamental, level Religion cannot tell 'how' and cannot tell 'why', it assumes there is a 'why' and can only guess at ‘why’. Science makes no claims that it attempts to answer 'why'.
Cris Religions really neglect fundamental physical questions by saying its will of God. They view the universe as a temporal one. The focus of religion is more on its primary concern which is not physical - the God / Soul / Consciousness. Because their scope is based on physcial observation and no place for any subjective, non-physical entities. But the question of 'why' bugs the scientists. But they don't dare to tread along that path for they would not find any physical proof.
As far as I can tell everyone missed the entire point of this post. Theists, it had nothing to do with you. Athiests, it was not meant as a launching board for theist bashing. The good Dr. here has made a profound statement. Just because we live in a world without god or supernatural goings-on does not mean we have to live in a world, a universe, devoid of mystery, adventure and discovery. Stop being so jaded, and look at the amazing world around you.
Maybe its time we stop arguing about "why". Because until science reaches the point where every "how" has been explained, science will not begin to answer "why". There is no way for us to know why until we know exactly how everything works in this universe. I think some day we will get there. If we do not kill ourselves first over "why". Its no use even discussing it unless you can keep in mind that all possibilities are only possibilities. We must get passed this, to accept the idea that we don't know. Some of us have, probably most of us here. But the rest of the world is behind us. Society is close minded. Close mindedness rules society. People don't accept anything, they blame others for their problems. It is not their fault. Society has made them this way. Society is a problem that must be changed. Somehow. I don't know how, I just know that something needs to be done and I'm ready to do whatever it takes to change it.
Thank you angelus you have explained what I was trying to say better than I couldPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I used to agree with you philosopher, it seems like a good idea to wait until we know more before we speculate on anything but we will be waiting a long time before every how has been explained, in fact I doubt we will be here when that happens, so why not wonder about such things now? I fear we are taking a rather futile stance by blocking our ears and humming whenever we hear something that hasn't been published in scientific journals. What I think we should all do is take every piece of science and try to string it all together into one big picture. Reality is pretty amazing. We sometimes forget that the fact that there is anything at all IS a miracle. Maybe not a magic supernatural jesus-wielded miracle but a miracle none the less. The scientific community in general seems to shun this train of thought but why? It isn't contradicting science, merely taking it ALL into account at the same time.
I don't think the scientific method is sterile and mechanical. Moreover I think it is going in the very opposite direction in too grand a way. There has been an inordinate amount of guessing lately. Wormholes, inflationary theory, dark energy, etc. Cosmology is looking more like Astrology. Science in general has this bad reputation as a rigid set of principles that are altogether too tautological. That is an unfair assessment of science as a whole, however. It is just as much imagination as it is knowledge. Einstein in fact sided with the former. That is unfair. In fact there are any number of theories trying evaluate the events prior to the big bang. And to add to that we are events. We can be described. If you don't like that then you are in denial of the truth. Nothing is ever finished. There is simply more complete ad infinitum. Would we be happy if this weren't the case? I think not. But of course when compared to any of the alternatives, the logical conclusion has supremacy. In fact what you say sounds more profound than what its substance belies. You are indeed a spurious person whose philosophy is quite borrowed from Greek philosophers.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle. I love to speculate and just think about ideas and play with them. But most people don't have the capacity to think like that. I would say 5 percent of the population. Just because those 5 percent have the mental capacity to think abstractly. I couldn't tell you how someone thinks that say has an average iq, because I can't read thier minds. Chances are if you are thinking about ideas such as why we are here you have the mental capacity. From past experience I came to the conclusion that those with average to below average iq's don't like to think about things to much. For some reason they tend to think as least as possible. Although this is just my perspective on the matter. You think we could ever find a average iq person to ask questions about the way they think without getting offended? They seem to get offended very easily. Past jobs i use to have, there was always people that felt the manager was talking down to them. I never felt like anyone has talked down to me, I couldn't understand how they got this impression. Makes me want to study psychology. I think that we need to know how the average person acts before anything is changed. Cause if one gets offended, I'm sure they all would. And they take things to heart a little too much. I think we all need to seperate ourselves from ideas such as religion a little more. Did I get a little carried away?
The problem with religion, is that it tries to explain that which can not be explained. It inevitably fails, and everyone argues over it. Word tricks. I think I know what the doc means. So much here is pedantics. Tit for tat. For myself, I see Religion as getting between people and God. I use the term God, as a catch phrase to capture that 'mysterious' element, that is timeless and everywhere. It is in you, and you hear it when all around you is at it's most quiet. You have a sense of it, yet it has no face. It is beside you, but always just out of reach. It is the beauty of even the saddest moment. Sometimes I think I can feel time pushing me forward, I feel the past and the future, being as one. An enormous energy, like a wave surging, carrying me ahead. So many questions have no answer They are dumb questions. Division by zero, and all that. Why bother trying to answer senseless questions. Some of you will take pot shots at this, or miss the point entirely - go ahead. But some of you will know what I mean. It is for you, I write this.
Sorry teg, let me start over, I like science, I think its doing its job perfectly. But its inadvertantly sucking the questions out of some people, not all but some. I, for example, take science for what it is and for me the more I learn the more bizarre the universe becomes. But there are those, thanks to science, who feel there is nothing wierd about reality at all and I think its sad. Once something has been scientifically explained they wipe their hands and move on as though its boring and mundane now. Yeah we know how it works now but I argue that makes it no less amazing. I remember that science teacher on the wonder years that had that drawn out extremely boring mono-tone voice, "the female toad lays its eggs on a ..." meanwhile all the kids are falling asleep. But when you really think about it the breeding habits of toads are freaking wierd and interesting. Science has accidently made everything seem boring. Science has a drawn out mono-tone voice. Its like "yeah toads whatever", but it should be "yeah! toads! what the fuck?!!" Its like the human race tries to make things boring so it can go on with everyday life without distractions. Before science we had religion which did the same thing, it said "god made everything, be good and god will be good to you be bad and he'll be bad blah blah blah now shut up and get back to work!" The result(or maybe even the goal) of both seems to be stopping people from wondering about anything. I think it was the goal of religion but unfortunately science is getting the same result. It has the potential to be different though, and that is what I'm talking about. Thats what I mean by people need to stop accepting science as a finished product. I'm not saying don't accept it, I'm saying accept it but actually think about it afterwards. With every little snippet of scientific fact you learn ask "so how does this fit into the big picture?" and try and piece it all together yourself. I don't think the word is spirituality but doing this does add something to your life. Many people, particularly ex-religious turned sensible types, seem a little bitter or depressed with their atheistic realisations but there really is no need to be, the universe is freaking awesome and I think we should worship it, I think we should worship the sun and the earth. Not on our hands and knees, just take time out to think how awesome all those things really are. Rather than calculating the force of the suns gravity go out and feel it feeding you energy through your skin and say "thanks pal". You don't have to but it works for mePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Yeah, Science cannot be at fault. It is the only way to explore the reality. Science helps to understand, in steps, the already existing reality - universe. Why the hell anyone has to understand the universe.? What are the driving forces that made humanity to constantly enhance the knowledge.? necessity and curiousity..? may be others too. for the moment these 2 things come to my mind spontaneously. well, necessity has fixed scope to turn the to be acquired knowledge into applications that fulfil what warranted that knowledge. Its the curiousity that drove, drives the humanity into new trajectories. Newton, Darwin and Einstein never had agenda for finding something that could be utilised to make our life more comfortable when they endup in theories of Gravity, natural selection and relativity respectively. ( Here einstein's could have the necessity but that might come under scientific necessity of explaining. ) Thus invention/discovery out of knowledge could be the result of different perspectives like necessity and curiousity of humans. Science helps anyone to acquire knowledge. but it is not supposed to make everyone to pause and ponder 'wtf'. It is not supposed to give everyone, by default, the perspective to see the reality but the knowledge of it. The river follows its course obeying the laws of nature. Can we say the river gathers the knowledge where it should go the next moment on the run.?. If a river is capable of pasuing for a moment and wonder why it has to follow the natural laws to follow its course then it is capable of gathering its energy to overcome any damn dam. Does this pausing for a moment gives the river a new perspective as any intelligent being can have..? We, humans, have the ability to have a perspective of whether the nature is just to be exploited with the gathered knowledge OR the nature is to be wondered too for our own enhanced experience, after all we are part of it. I value the later perspective. When you have this one you effectively shifted your existence FROM being a mechanical entity that is only aimed at efficiency and precision and correctness TO being an experiencing sentinent being that seeks more experience of perfection and fullness that seems quite a possibilty in the wonderful universe where it is a part. "There remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion" --Albert Einstein excuse me if you feel i am too vague.
Great post Dr. Lou. I totally agree with you. Arguing with theists has polarized me, and I'm only lately (after not going to the Religion forum for a while) remebering that thoughts shouldn't be easily dismissed just because they can't be expressed in the form of an equation Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. There is a word that changed how I think about science, "model." The Big Bang is nothing more than a model. We don't, and can't, know if the Big Bang actually happened, but it is practical to assume so, or to use the big bang to describe what may have happened, because the suspected consequences of such an event are what we actually observe. So the big bang serves as a model of what happened. Does that make sense? Anyway, I'll just stop because I think you already articulated it perfectly Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!.
