I was wondering, would you say that the Muslims in a (relatively) free society such as in the Western counties are more Islamic than the Muslims in the Middle East? A friend of mine offered this opinion based on what he simple stated was the essence of Islam. He didn’t go into detail but to say: “Why do you think 95% of the Muslims in America are Black, it’s because Islam is tolerant and in a free society the goodness of Islam is expressed.” Sort of makes sense to me, but I admit I really only know a little about Islam. Anyway, I was wondering what people thought. Are the Muslims in America living more of a truly Islamic life then their counterparts in the Middle East? (I’m not sure if the question was framed correctly as the religion and culture can be a bit confusing to me, but I think you get my point)
In America most Muslims are Black as they are linked Islam ina certain Afro-centric version as groups like for instance Nation of Islam presents . There are also Hebrew groups in America , and in some occasions it can be said that those groups have more in common with eachother (Islam-Hebrew) than with their Judaistic or Islamic foundation . Remember Muhammad Ali The reason for Muslims in America being Black deals with being Black more than with Islam . Islam was presented to Afro-Americans as a White/Christian contraproduct to give identity to the Blacks in America . In NYC Black Muslims (most traditional Muslim would not agree them as within the Ummah (Islamic community) , but those are oftenly the same peoples who say the same about Sufi's) are a very large group . Muslims by heritage in the West are BY FAR anywhere near as strict as the peoples from the homelands (depends where ofcourse , Lebanon for instance is very Western) No I think strictness deals mostly with the fact that its consciously adapted , and in Europe the heritage-Muslims (immigrants originally) are also lower economical classes , higher criminality etc ...... all of this pushing them away from Islam . In a materialist society Islam dissapears both in west as east , it doesnt florish one bit . All those "spiritual" eastern things in the West are mostly nothing but fashion . I have heard however about Shiaa in USA who live much stricter , but Id say thats a Shiaa thing in general . Oh and to add for a whole terrorism thing : In the West the kids recruited to fight the guerilla wars (chechnya etc) are oftenly of criminal background , social low classes etc . Perhaps one can see the link between fundamentalist Islam and no Islam at all . I hope my rambling helped a bit Michael peace
I understand. And that does make sense - what both of you mentioned. I guess I was under the assumption that Islam was actually a little more free thinking and that the last century or so was when it had become so much more strict. So I thought maybe the Muslims in the West actually represented a little more of the true teachings. I guess not. I’m not sure where my friend was going with that idea – although at the time he mentioned it, it seemed to make some sense. He just left for NZ so maybe I’ll ask him to elaborate when he returns. As for the African Americans embracing Islam over Christianity, well yes I agree. I mean obvioulsy not so long ago White Christians were selling Blacks as property and of course the Bible was fine with that. I'd still say many White “Christians” are quite racist in the US. However, you'd be surprised when you talk to kids like ~15. They are influenced by Black culture (Hip Hop/Sports/Clothes/Dance/etc..) so much that I do think they are to some degree color blind. Which is good. Thanks, MII
Michael Herein lie the problem, which people like Ghassan fail to comprehend, and that is that Islam and the fundamentals of democracy and freedom are compatible. However, they cannot see this in action because of their stereotyped vision of America. They perceive the US to be in support of dictatorial regimes that nurtures and protects the hateful ideology of terrorism. What they don’t understand is that the US is trying to advance the support of freedom in the Middle East to encourage creativity, tolerance and enterprise, and in those free nations, the appeal of extremism will wither away. Ensure Iraq becomes a democracy so that people have a model to see and emulate, to not support dictators, insist on political and economic reforms, and allow moderate Islamic parties to participate. Muslim men who graduate with a degree can’t get a job, have no wife, can’t get an apartment, and can’t lead a normal life. This lack of dignity and freedom is at the root of violence and extremism, a hopelessness that is at the root of terrorism. Bringing in democracy and freedom will bring hope. But Muslims must have a full understanding of how a true democracy will be compatible with Islamic beliefs; elected government with independent branches, separation of powers, freedom of religion and expression, and protection of minority rights. Once these are established the main challenge is ignorance, and by providing educational information to schools, law enforcement organizations, employers and other groups, the Middle East can prevent discrimination and cut through the stereotypes.
Q: Democracy and islam are not immideatly compatibe, sicne islamic fundamentalists have their own view of how society should be ruled with sharia (islamic law). here in Europe there are numerous examples of immigrants now agruing against the democratic system. This actually happened in Lille (or Roubaix?) a month ago during a rally where 2000 local moslems very clearly thought that they were entitled to political power. The city of Bradford in the UK have been conmverted to a medival town as well, after the majority of the populace became moslem. Furthermore, there have been lots of violence in that same region, notied in a number of larger newspapers, at least in the UK, over the past years. Here in Denmark, we have man problems with moslems in the ghettos: Århus V (Jutland), Vollsmose (Odense), Ishøj, Nørrebro (Copenhagen), Vapnagård (Helsingør). Moslem foreigners are segverely overrepresented in the crime statistics, despite that they are only 3% of the population. 20% of Denmarks prison capacity is used by moslems. ~70% of the brutal violence cases in Copenhagen are comitted by Moslems immigrants and their offspring.
The UK and Denmark are both constitutional monarchies, which are autocracies. Autocracies and democracies are diametrically opposed concepts of government. I suppose the question to ask is how much freedom do autocracies grant? And in the case of Islam, how much religious freedom?
Muslims can and do live and participate in democracies and republics. Being a Muslim isn't anti-democratic. Being a nutty Muslim fundamentalist is anti-democratic and anti-freedom because the type of state these people desire is based on the will of Allah rather than the will of the people or individual rights. Immigrants do that here, too. It's not only Muslims. Immigrants and other politically correct groups have "third-worldized" certain areas here, too, so I don't think it has anything to do with Islam. But are these people committing crimes because they are Muslims?
How do African American Muslims reconcile the fact that the slave trade to American could not have been possible without the complicity of Islamic slave traders in Western Africa? Furthermore, why do African American Muslims dispute the well documented existence of slavery in Sudan, which is being propagated by African Muslims?
They don't, because their beliefs are motivated by anti-Western sentiments rather than an objective view of history. Because the Black Muslim movement is based at least in part on political ideology, and their dogma is threatened by examples of black-on-white and black-on-black atrocities.
Q : On Democracy and Islam : Ofcourse they are compatible , why would I not see this ? It seems however that you do not see that what peoples would vote for (even if its not parties but actual points or even laws) democratically are within Islamic context , the same as Christians would vote within Christian context . However in the West atheism is huge , and this is very different in Islamic countries , something that obviously has a role in the west and most probably would have a great role in the Islamic countries as well if that would be so , but its not . Democracy doesnt mean freedom to purchase alcohol , it means freedom to choose weither or not to allow the purchase of alcohol . Now the freedom you speak about is very shortsighted , in the first place it is not such freedoms by defintion that are desired by democratic decision of the peoples , but more importantly USA is only supporting something that benefits them , look at Saudi Arabia ? They support the oil-states as well while they are nothing but robberies of the peoples wealth , products of Imperial map-making to suith the West untill this very day . DJ ~70% of the brutal violence cases in Copenhagen are comitted by Moslems immigrants and their offspring. Im not buying your numbers as you have proved to use lies to make point , you have to offer accuracy with backup . But have you ever thought of why there is alo of crime by Muslims in Europe ? Its not just Muslims you see , its ALL lower classes which are mostly made out of immigrants , colonial or otherwise . DJ the rest of your points made obviously go as one would expect , Islamophic demonization . I thank Galt for making goo points against you . Now back to Amerika : The Black Muslims indeed have some issues that are mentioned here . However some can be easily explained : * Islamic slavetrade to America . * Sudan today . You see there is one thing with these issues that you guys seem to be missing , they are performed by Arabs . Arabs are multi-racial , they are Semitic as well as Caucasian through various historical and regionali influences . So they may be Islamic , but that doesnt make them totally Black . As I said , in essence it is much more a Black issue as an Islamic one , something that explains the Black Hebrews existence as well . I am happy however that the Black peoples of America have adapted their Islamic identity as it has given them education & care , and most importantly a place in society that offers them hope .
Allahs/Jihad/Ghassan However in the West atheism is huge , and this is very different in Islamic countries , something that obviously has a role in the west and most probably would have a great role in the Islamic countries as well if that would be so , but its not . So what? People can believe or not believe whatever they want. Why would you or Muslims have a problem with that? Atheists are not at war with theists due to their difference in beliefs – it is the theists who are at war with each other over their beliefs. USA is only supporting something that benefits them , look at Saudi Arabia ? They support the oil-states as well while they are nothing but robberies of the peoples wealth , products of Imperial map-making to suith the West untill this very day This is an example of the stereotyped perceptions held by Islamic countries. These are exactly the issues I was talking about that require resolution through education. You should try becoming part of the solution instead of being part of the problem.
So what? People can believe or not believe whatever they want. Why would you or Muslims have a problem with that? Atheists are not at war with theists due to their difference in beliefs – it is the theists who are at war with each other over their beliefs. Nobody should have problems with atheism , the thing is that it simply isnt there as much as it is in the Western societies . So that way through democracy peoples will choose within Islamic context as that is what they want to choose in freedom . As for the wars , you should know better they depend on other things than theoretical differences in their faiths . It has political and social factors . This is an example of the stereotyped perceptions held by Islamic countries. These are exactly the issues I was talking about that require resolution through education. You should try becoming part of the solution instead of being part of the problem. What does my personal role have to do with acknoweldging a present state of how things are ? Are you denying these acknowledge through your labeling as "stereotyped" ? They are actual and very relevant for the current situation . In fact it has only expanded with the recent military operations . Anyways can you explain me how I would be part of the problems in the Middle East ? I rather say you are quite more part of it than I am as your $ is used to oppress my peoples . The solution is within the removal of YOUR influence in MY region .
Allahs/Jihad/Ghassan Nobody should have problems with atheism , the thing is that it simply isnt there as much as it is in the Western societies . That speaks volumes, doesn’t it? When people are free to believe what they want, they sometimes choose not to believe. An atheist trying to exist in an Islamic nation certainly wouldn’t last very long. If a person questioned Islam, would he most likely be killed? In that respect, Islam could be considered oppressive. As for the wars , you should know better they depend on other things than theoretical differences in their faiths . It has political and social factors . The bottom line is usually money and power. Religious institutions can control governments in the pursuit of money and power, yes? What does my personal role have to do with acknoweldging a present state of how things are ? You don’t wish to contribute anything positive to the situation; instead your wish is to continue the violence. Are you denying these acknowledge through your labeling as "stereotyped" They are actual and very relevant for the current situation . In fact it has only expanded with the recent military operations . That is your perception of the Middle East situation. Military operations would not be necessary if the state of the Middle East as what I described above did not exist. Anyways can you explain me how I would be part of the problems in the Middle East ? I rather say you are quite more part of it than I am as your $ is used to oppress my peoples . My money is not oppressing your peoples (who are your peoples?) Ruthless dictators and lack of freedoms are what oppress your peoples. The US is trying to resolve those issues and provide freedoms without ruthless dictators. The solution is within the removal of YOUR influence in MY region . So, your solution is to remove freedom and democracy and substitute it with …?
Q DooDoo That speaks volumes, doesn’t it? When people are free to believe what they want, they sometimes choose not to believe. Who says they arent free to choose ? Most countries are very secular with even having mixed-religion marriages , there is plenty religious freedom , they just dont choose atheism but rather something else because of their culture , something the West does not have . An atheist trying to exist in an Islamic nation certainly wouldn’t last very long Not in Sudan no but in Lebanon or Syria or Iraq it wouldnt have been any problem . If a person questioned Islam, would he most likely be killed? Not really no . Its not Iran everywhere Q In that respect, Islam could be considered oppressive. So why do you choose a fundamnetalist Wahhabi or Shia perspective decide oppressiveness of Islam rather than a majority of moderation ? Scriptures do no oppress peoples do . The bottom line is usually money and power. Religious institutions can control governments in the pursuit of money and power, yes? If you consider cleriks & Imams (that are today) the institutions (Islam doesnt have institutions like church) ofcourse they are very incapable in governing a country even if they wouldnt pursuit money and power thus corruption (which like you say they indeed would) , even then they shouldnt govern anything as they are simply not qualified . But as for the social and political factors considered in conflicts between religious peoples , religious leadership deals with those factors but is not the cause of them , rather an effect , that is in todays modern world . You don’t wish to contribute anything positive to the situation; instead your wish is to continue the violence. And how exactly would you know my positive contributon to the situation ? I dont think you are in any positions to make such a statement . Violence is not a problem in itself but a means to achieve either a problem or solution . If you care to eliminate violence then eliminate mankind since its not seperable . I however care to eliminate the problem , I understand you consider this negative from your biased position , not everybody is in that position of yours . That is your perception of the Middle East situation. Military operations would not be necessary if the state of the Middle East as what I described above did not exist. Excuse me but you are here pointing out some ME problem you think exists without even considering how the ME itself as a peoples considers this ? And to change it you need military action ? Then I dont think you would be any different than our fundamentalists who eventually wish to convert the entire globe like you do , only instead of converting it amerikanism they want Wahhabi . My money is not oppressing your peoples (who are your peoples?) Ruthless dictators and lack of freedoms are what oppress your peoples. My peoples are Arabs & Muslims . Ruthless dictators are on the USA paycheck and have even been helped to power , your money is very much oppressing my peoples . Also as we speak there are military operations my peoples have not asked for and are suffering under very much , you payed for that as well . , your solution is to remove freedom and democracy and substitute it with …? What exactly gave you the illusion your influence has brought or will bring freedom and democracy ? It never has and it never will unless it would become one of its own interests (like for instance Kuweiti "democracy" is in your best interest) . What we would remove is a $-pumping machine so that our dictators become weak and the peoples can rise , we would remove your military so that the peoples can be souvereign . The peoples are at war with you , dont forget that .
Good Question Michael But, Religion will remain a tool for gaining social and political power nomatter where you go. Religion should be private and separate regardless of how good the society have it. Just look at our little group on sciforum and see how many possibly wonderful people are picking at each other like angry rooster at the thought of religions. Religion will never be fully rational, it's partly emotional and for that it must stay private with the individuals. Michael, if the question of why the Islamic countries are in deep shit bother you, then all you have to do is imajine this situation. You are asked to build your house on top of the ruins of your father and grandfather, ect....Islamic countries are old and developing it is like exhuming the past, it's unpleasant and impossible. America have no history and is developing fresh. Europe is semi fresh, but still fresher than the middle east. And don't think that it's just the bricks and mortars that are extremely old and hardened in the middle east, the minds of the people are suffering similar diagnosis. When people from the middle east leave their old unopportunistic lands, they are hungry for opportunities and a chance to express themselves, that's why you see muslim Americans carrying an entirely different slogan than muslims in the middle east.
If you can only remember one political fact, it's that democracy and freedom can not be given or taken, they are earned and maintained. And the path to freedom and democracy is a difficult one paved with much sacrifice and blood.
yeah, that's the west is dreaming, plain stupid, or evil thinking that they can sell us the idea that they can copy and paste their democracy wherever they wish. Arabs must want this democracy enough to cause a an internal revolution and change their ways before they can enjoy true democracy.
yeah, that's the west is dreaming, plain stupid, or evil thinking that they can sell us the idea that they can copy and paste their democracy wherever they wish. You’re saying that freedom and democracy are stupid and evil? You prefer dictatorships? Arabs must want this democracy enough to cause a an internal revolution and change their ways before they can enjoy true democracy. They don’t have to go to such extremes. As I stated, Islam and democracy can be compatible. And besides, we are not talking about lifestyles, we are talking about a system of government.
No, it's the thought that one can give another democracy that is evil. Democracy and freedom are private unique characters to be tailored for each society. Do you suggest that a straight person give a gay person their version of democracy, of course not, then don't expect the west to give the east their version of democracy or vice versa, for the east, it might be pure hell. Islam and democracy will never be compatible. No religion and government will ever be compatible. Islam is based on the person, Bin Laden's version of Islam is quite different than mine and yours and because of that, standarizing religion is the worst step you take with democracy.
