Looking for proof will drive you mad

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by The Void, Jul 3, 2003.

  1. The Void Registered Member

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    I was thinking yersterday about the rule in the bible that everyone seems to break. The one that talked about not looking for proof of God's exhistance because it will just drive you mad. I take heart in this. It allows me to read and discuss evolution and big bang theory without having to say " That cannot be because it couldn't have happened that way. the bible says something else"

    I take it to heart that no matter what we discover its not going to lead to proof, If there was proof I believe that it would defeat the goal our reality was created for. So while I argue that evolultion happened, etc, it in no way deters my faith.

    I talk to God everyday and see his work in my life. I also use my mind to think about the creation of the universe without looking for proof of god's exhistance in it. I am free from having to look for holes in theories that confound creationists, making them take stand points of what I consider to be trivial technicallities. Instead I work to make discoveries out of general curiosity like any other scientist.

    I thought hard before posting this, but maybe it will help someone. Its my first post in this forum, so I don't know what to expect here.
     
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  3. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    The Void,

    Welcome to sciforums.

    Have you considered that the authors of the bible knew that they were writing fiction and hence knew there could never be any proof so they inserted that text so that gullible people would not be tempted to ask questions?
     
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  5. Mucker Great View! Registered Senior Member

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    I think the important point is faith! The idea proposed by this the void is that one should have faith in God, and not need proof. Does anyone else think that the whole universe, in the way it just is seems to point to the fact that we are stuck on a planet and it's as if we are not meant to know the truth! The whole thing is very puzzling, and it's as if it's a question of faith.
     
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  7. The Void Registered Member

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    Aye, I used to take that to an extreme too. At one time I thought religon was a way to control a more primitive uneducated population. A way to enforce morals in those people that other wise would have no reason to obey laws. Sure punishment works but why not tell the idiot peasants that if they murder someone they will burn forever in hell. A much easier deterent than locking people up, or hanging peasants that would otherwise be building your monuments or farming your land.

    I can think of countless holes in the bible. I wont even try to defend them because I cannot explain it. I dont even know if a time machine taking me back to see Jesus himself speak would clear up all the questions.

    At the time I believed in nothing I was empty. I can't believe its me saying it, my 25 year old self would be barfing. I do know that when i pray for focus I get it. When I pray for the strength to accomplish a task it comes to me if I am sincere enough, etc. This isn't proof god exhists to another but it is to me. When it happens enough I became convinced. I manage to find just barely enough resources to get by when before I saw no path. Its like magic, if you can imagine that. I'm no BS preacher trying to get your money either I really believe this stuff. I was put through literal hell in my life before I turned to this as a last resort. I feel like I have an ally now and Im glad to have em.

    Dont be surprised to hear my arguements for evolution etc in the science forum either. I dont think they contratic. It is the only way I have been able to make sense out of all of it.
     
  8. Circe Registered Senior Member

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    406
    It's always nice to see open minded people here.

    I hope you post more often


    Welcome to sciforums, Void

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  9. The Void Registered Member

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    Thanks Corce, nice to meet you.
     
  10. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Mucker,

    But the post represents a defeatist and lazy approach to life. That trying to discover truth is too hard and that we should all give up trying.

    Then you run the real and highly probable risk that what you believe will be false since there are more things that are false than are true. I.e. there is an infinite set of things that can be imagined but only a small finite subset of things that will be true. The chance of you accidentally finding something true without a proof is near to zero.

    No. It’s that we simply haven’t learnt and discovered enough yet.

    Or a question of patience, education and discovery.
     
  11. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    The Void,

    But this is still the case for many western democracies like the USA for example. The legal system still requires witnesses and jurors to swear an oath on the bible. The implication is that if they lie they will be punished by God. It is still a primitive culture that relies on such techniques.

    And for many people the power of positive thinking has also been shown to be very successful. The placebo effect is also very real.

    I have no doubt the effects are real it is just that others can easily achieve the same thing without the need to believe in a god. Your strong conviction gives you strength, but that is the very real effect of positive thinking. There is no god involved that is just a delusion.

    That’s fine, but gods aren’t real, you only believe they are and it is that strong belief that gives you confidence in yourself. There is no god helping you solve your problems, you are doing that yourself.

    But it is still a crutch. Perhaps you can’t survive without one. But once you realize it is your own strength you are using then you will be able to kick away the crutch of religion and experience true freedom and self confidence.
     
  12. revbill2001 Registered Senior Member

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    114
    The bible has an iffy plot, an indeterminate ending, but a gigantic cast of characters, and it's non fattening.

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  13. The Void Registered Member

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    Thanks for your response Chris. I expected more people to say these types of things.


     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2003
  14. The Void Registered Member

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    18
    The Void,



    quote:
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    At one time I thought religion was a way to control a more primitive uneducated population. A way to enforce morals in those people that other wise would have no reason to obey laws. Sure punishment works but why not tell the idiot peasants that if they murder someone they will burn forever in hell.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But this is still the case for many western democracies like the USA for example. The legal system still requires witnesses and jurors to swear an oath on the bible. The implication is that if they lie they will be punished by God. It is still a primitive culture that relies on such techniques.

    ** A point that is easy to see. Sure seems like it at first glance I agree.



    quote:
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    I do know that when i pray for focus I get it. When I pray for the strength to accomplish a task it comes to me if I am sincere enough, etc.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And for many people the power of positive thinking has also been shown to be very successful. The placebo effect is also very real.


    ** I am a great fan of the power of positive thinking type books. I have read Tony Robbins and Les Brown and own many audio tapes. What I have discovered in my own journey though is that positive thinking is only one half the battle and I WILL elaborate more on this in another post.


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    This isn't proof god exists to another but it is to me. When it happens enough I became convinced.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have no doubt the effects are real it is just that others can easily achieve the same thing without the need to believe in a god. Your strong conviction gives you strength, but that is the very real effect of positive thinking. There is no god involved that is just a delusion.

    ** What I am saying here is that I know the issues as you see them. I know that for you the only thing that is going to swerve you is God himself appearing and telling you your wrong to your face lol, at least at this point. What changed my beliefs was a CONSISTENT good result from prayer that I could not get any other way. I spent 10 years fighting a losing battle with all the tools you have mentioned.


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    I manage to find just barely enough resources to get by when before I saw no path. Its like magic, if you can imagine that. I'm no BS preacher trying to get your money either I really believe this stuff.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That’s fine, but gods aren’t real, you only believe they are and it is that strong belief that gives you confidence in yourself. There is no god helping you solve your problems, you are doing that yourself.

    ** Saying gods aren't real draws a conclusion. You can't know that. You can strongly suspect it and say its unlikely but saying that they 100% aren't real isn't an enlightened way to look at just about anything. My belief comes from CONSISTENT positive results that lead me to this point of view. You can argue with this too, but to do so would be just for the sake of arguement. You can't draw a conclusion that is 100% based in fact regarding the exhistence of your creator, it is illogical.


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    I was put through literal hell in my life before I turned to this as a last resort. I feel like I have an ally now and Im glad to have em.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But it is still a crutch. Perhaps you can’t survive without one. But once you realize it is your own strength you are using then you will be able to kick away the crutch of religion and experience true freedom and self confidence.

    ** Im being haunted by my own words here. For me to answer this here and now would be like jumping to the end of a book and telling you the conclusion. It is easy to reduce it to a crutch, I dont see it that way, and you are not ready to hear why.


    __________________
    People should be free to do anything they wish except where such actions would interfere with the freedom of others
     
  15. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    The Void,

    I can easily understand the frustration of the Christian who is continually faced with questions regarding lack of proof for their god. And as you have pointed out that the bible says you should not seek such information, and that those who seek proof before they believe have yet to experience that all important inspirational leap to understanding the greater truth.

    I understand the phase you are going through and that you are doing your best to convince yourself that you have found something real. Or rather it is real for you, but it is very subjective and personal. However, many people from many religions reach the same conclusions, but your problem in trying to convince others that your ‘truth’ is correct is showing why the Buddhist for example who has found an equally satisfying truth (without a god) is less real than yours. When you look beyond Christianity and at other religions and even the New Age upstarts, we find that same inner belief that something has an essential truth and it is that psychological process that you are experiencing.

    It is not that I do not have respect for you but that I can very easily see the mistake you are making. It will likely take you some time to realize this and it will either be traumatic or a cathartic relief when you eventually (if ever) discover your mistake.

    I suspect I jumped in because I recognize your story as being quite a common mistake.

    But here is where I find religions particularly damaging even to the point of being evil. For the moment human lifetime is very short, to waste anytime on nonsense is criminal. What is worse is losing time believing that a wonderful super benefactor will give me immortality, when we should be working hard to solve these problems for ourselves.

    As for pascal’s wager; we have discussed this many times here and I won’t repeat the issues again. It is invalid – try this link –

    http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html

    But here is the atheist wager –

    I’m 50, my perspectives have changed many times in my life already. I’m now at a point where many things have become very clear, one of which is the overwhelming need for objective and critical thought.

    But yes I can. The concept of gods is based only on human imagination. They are fictional in exactly the same way that Sherlock Holmes is fictional.

    Do you then only strongly suspect that Sherlock Holmes is not real?

    Given that I am the result of an evolutionary process and was not created then I could argue for 100% fact. But that is not what you meant is it? Where is the logic in concluding that an imaginary character created the universe? So yes I can conclude with 100% certainty that imaginary characters do not create universes.

    The real problem is yours in trying to prove that gods are not imaginary, and that brings us back to your original post where you are trying to escape that responsibility.

    I suspect you aren’t capable of explaining your perspective in a logically convincing manner. This is a factual assessment since you have already agreed that you have no proofs and hence no facts so any argument you present is necessarily irrational. But take care with how you assess me; I have considered many possibilities over the years. Isn’t it more likely that you know you have a weak case and that I am not likely to believe your argument on that basis?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2003
  16. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    13,968
     
  17. Bridge Registered Senior Member

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    Cris wrote:
    Yes, of course, they all conspired together despite some of the authors not even knowing who Christ was or what the outcome of the book would be. Some of them died horrendous deaths because they were so intent on selling this fiction.


    Yes, somehow only you were imparted wisdom amongst the billions of souls on this earth.

    Gag me.
     
  18. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Bridge,

    Damn I didn’t know they were that well organized as well as insane.

    Nah, sciforums doesn’t have that many members yet, but Porfiry is trying.

    Nah, everyone can see cynicism is its own worst enemy.
     
  19. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    If you insist that martyrdom constitutes compelling evidence, you may discover that logical consistency mandates your support for many movements which have managed to produce martyrs.
     
  20. VitalOne Banned Banned

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    2,716
    Looking for proof of alot of things will drive you mad, god is just another thing. You can prove anything to be true or false if you search hard enough.
     
  21. The Void Registered Member

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    18
    Cris

    Hello,

    Sorry its been a few days I haven't had a chance to reply to your last post yet. I've been out celebrating our Independence Day, and its sapped my energy, ( enough beer will do that ). Im going to hit the sack I'll send you something as intellectually stimulating as I can tomorrow.

    The Void
     
  22. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    The Void,

    No problem.
     

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