I'm subscribed to a Christian magazine called Brio. (Don't worry, I'm not wasting my money on it, I have a relative who thinks I need it.) Well, out of sheer boredom I was flipping through the most recent issue and I found something I think is just crazy!! I had never even considered this as a bad thing until I read that article. Here's Susie's response: Ok, first of all, what is the known will of God? Obviously it isn't well known if this is even an issue. My next problem is with the statement "I hope you won't become so comfortable in this position that it'll also become easy to fall asleep with him if the two of you are alone." What would you rather them do if they are alone?? Is she suggesting they should do something else? It would be safer for them to be asleep than to be awake and "tempted" to do other things. To the Christians out there, what is your view on this. What is acceptable for a couple to do outside of marriage? -Belle
It is definitely a bit overboard. Falling asleep together is probably safer than staying awake together for too long as you said Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The best thing to do is listen to your conscience. If you believe you will feel guilty afterwards, don't do it. The very nature of a relationship is intimacy and companionship, so resisting it will cause unneccesary strain on the relationship. If the other person is also a Christian: talk about it and sort it out between youselves. Try not to make 'rules', but remember: The whole point of morality laws in the Bible is to ensure a)the minimum chance of getting hurt, and b)the maximum chance of having a healthy and lasting relationship. If you aren't married yet, consider this a test of your commitment. There is no such thing as love without commitment, because at some stage, either one will have to choose in or out. Ask yourself if you will want to share that experience with someone else. If you don't mind falling asleep in the arms of every person you fall in love with, then no harm done. But temptation is always best resisted. If the other person can resist the temptation to have sex with you - the person whom they love most - now, you can be sure they will be able to resist sleeping around later with someone they love less. And if they do sleep (have sex) with someone else, they have lost something special - you - while you haven't, and you can look for the next love of your life without regrets. Having sex before you are married creates a commitment that aren't ready for, and while you might feel you want to spend the rest of your life with a person, until they have promised it (in marriage) you simply can't be sure of it. That's the reason for (biblical) marriage: a promise. And trust me: what causes the most pain after a relationship has broken up is knowing that that person (and you) will have to share everything that was "special" with someone else. It takes away some of what was special about it. I know I'm preaching, sorry about that, but any Christian you ask will tell you the same, knowing that in the end you will decide for yourself. If it helps anything, listen to what Song of Solomon says repeatedly: "Don't excite love, don't stir it up, until the time is ripe--until it is ready"
I have pretty strict believes about premarital sex, and I thank god everyday that I'm already married. But......Anyways, I could control myself very well as a teenager, but when I met my hubby and I fell in love, resisting the temptation became sortta painful and we ended up having our first sex the week before our wedding....after we patiently waited two years. Jenyar, how do you think god will view premarital sex with the person you end up marrying and do you think I'll go to hell for that?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Flores, As you know, God will judge your heart, but even if the heart is pure, the deed must be punished. His laws are strict, and He has to be just. I have also had premarital sex, and the girl I thought I would marry has left me. I know I cannot tell others to do what I have not been able to do myself, but the anguish it caused me has made me realize how merciful God has been to forgive the sins of those who believe in Him. Flores, I have to be honest. Jesus is my only hope on eternal life. God will definitely find me guilty of sin, and our sins are heaped on us when we die. We would not be worthy of eternal life if it were not for Jesus, who bore the sin of those who believe that He was given authority by God to bear our sins. Jesus took our sin on Himself, and carried it into Hell when he died. God resurrected Jesus to eternal life, and left our sins behind in death, and my certainty is the certainty of Jesus' life. I will pray for you, and through the life of Jesus I am certain that you have already been forgiven. Romans 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
You're right- this IS a bit overboard Belle, First, let me say that I am not a Christian, so I'm going to give you a non-Christian answer. The sin of "sleeping with a man" before marriage does not refer to falling asleep next to a man on a bus. It refers to having premarital sex. I think that "Confused" should educate her friend about that, since she will need to know something about sex if she really wants to avoid sinning. But let's leave Christianity aside for a moment and ask the wider question: what harm could come to somebody from sleeping on a bus next to her boyfriend? Will it hurt anybody? Will it threaten world peace? Does it have any conceivable important affect on anybody apart from the sleeper and the boyfriend? I don't think it does. Do you think it should be anybody else's business as to whether you decide to sleep beside your boyfriend on a bus? I don't. This is the kind of thing I really don't like about Christianity - this creation of guilt in innocent young people who are doing nothing wrong. Should you be afraid that God won't let you into heaven because you rested your head against your boyfriend on a bus? If so, what kind of God is this? Is he really a God worth worshipping if he is so concerned with trivial nonsense like this? Why isn't he fixing the conflict in Israel instead? Sleeping on a bus is fine. It hurts nobody. Don't worry about it. <b>Jenyar</b> <i>The whole point of morality laws in the Bible is to ensure a)the minimum chance of getting hurt, and b)the maximum chance of having a healthy and lasting relationship.</i> How does falling asleep on a bus increase anybody's chance of getting hurt or having an unhealthy relationship? <i>If you don't mind falling asleep in the arms of every person you fall in love with, then no harm done. But temptation is always best resisted.</i> Why? If you're happy, and you're not hurting anybody else, why not fall asleep in the arms of somebody you love? Who has the right to tell you not to do that? <i>If the other person can resist the temptation to have sex with you - the person whom they love most - now, you can be sure they will be able to resist sleeping around later with someone they love less. And if they do sleep (have sex) with someone else, they have lost something special - you - while you haven't, and you can look for the next love of your life without regrets.</i> Sleeping with somebody else can be a betrayal if you're in a relationship, but not because sex is wrong, but because of the betrayal of the love and trust invested in the relationship. Sex isn't the problem, here - the problem is a lack of commitment to a loving relationship. Why is it that religious people can't seem to separate the issues? <i>Having sex before you are married creates a commitment that aren't ready for...</i> On the contrary, it need not create any commitment at all. <i>...and while you might feel you want to spend the rest of your life with a person, until they have promised it (in marriage) you simply can't be sure of it.</i> You can never be sure, even after they have promised to marry you. And 50% of marriages end in divorce these days. <i>And trust me: what causes the most pain after a relationship has broken up is knowing that that person (and you) will have to share everything that was "special" with someone else. It takes away some of what was special about it.</i> How so? What a person does later has no impact on what is happening right now. Special times shared will remain special times shared - nobody can take that away from you. <i>I have also had premarital sex, and the girl I thought I would marry has left me. I know I cannot tell others to do what I have not been able to do myself, but the anguish it caused me has made me realize how merciful God has been to forgive the sins of those who believe in Him.</i> All that angst. This is what I don't like about organised religion. I feel sorry that you suffer so much for your beliefs.
Premarital sex--My God, how could you?????? I know you asked Jenyar this question, but I couldn't resist answering. Hell no, Flores, you won't burn in Hell--after all, you two were already 'betrothed.' Jews consider being 'betrothed' to be as binding as marriage. Mary and Joseph were 'betrothed,' too, and had 'premarital' sex, I'm sure. In fact, I don't ever recall it written in the Bible where they had a marriage ceremony. Your sexual act was an act of love. How could there be any condemnation if something is done in the spirit of loving another person?
Personally I don't think it's a question of marriage, but of commitment and love. If two people are truly in love then I don't see a problem with sleeping together (having sex), as long as there is informed consent from both parties. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
True, but the Jewish concept of marriage is based on kiddushin (sanctification). The wife and husband are publicly sanctified (set apart for) to each other in an exclusive relationship. They do not begin to live together until after marriage. Sexual intercourse before marriage would violate the sanctity of the betrothal. If you read the passage in the Bible, you will see that Joseph did not want Mary to go through that humilitation, and considered leaving her. For those interested: [sexual relationships between those who were engaged and might live together for some time]... has been prohibited by tradition (Shulchan Aruch, Even Ha-ezer 55.1). In early times, such intercourse was reported as unobjectionable in Judea, but not in the Galilee (Ket. 7b, Ket. 12a). So interestingly, in Bethlehem, Judea (where Jesus was born) Joseph would probably not have had too much to worry about, but in Nazareth (in Galilee), where they were from, it was a problem. To James R, Dear James. Guilt is supposed to be a problem in religion. The problem with criminals is no guilt. What you do with guilt is a different story. God punishes the guilty (as any judge would), but Jesus as taken away that punishment by taking our guilt before God. So I don't have any angst about it other than praising God for forgiving me and resolving to resist something in the future that I should have resisted in the past. Guilt is removed when it is forgiven. Guilt only becomes a problem when 1)it is not punished, or 2)when forgiveness can not be expected even after remorse and change.
Re: You're right- this IS a bit overboard James, I think what Belle was trying to find is the boundary setting in what constitutes right and wrong under the umbrella of religion concerning the relationship between a man and woman while unmarried. I have seen some crazy religionist who have went so far to describe sex as the penetration of the hymn and thus they indulged in anal and oral and thought they are okay that way. On the other hand, you have people fearing eternal fire for holding a boy's hand or falling asleep on the bus on a boy's shoulder. I like Medecinewoman answer. I think sexual desires and pleasure is an ability within man and woman that should be managed regulated and excercised with control so to remain valuable, at the same time, it's not meant by any means to be restrained. Interestingly enough, you and other Atheists keep questioning, is this the kindda god you want to worship, and forget the responsbility of the person infront of god. The creator of man leaves man completely alone for the good and the bad for a limited time called our lifetime. During that time, god will not interfere in the middleeast or feed the hungry in Africa. God has already gave us a fertile beautifull earth, minds and souls that knows the right from wrong.....He has also given us respite to excercise our freedom to choose, and his interference is prejudging and prejudice and the god we believe in is not a prejudice god that interferes and prejudges.
Flores: I don't in an way believe it is God's responsibility to fix the problems of the world, but surely wars and so on are something <b>we</b> should be more worried about than people falling asleep too close to members of the opposite sex. Where is the harm? And what makes you think I'm an atheist?
Here I disagree a bit. We need to set our priorities were they matter, and if we focus on the middle east over playing with our children or sleeping with others, then we have lost both worlds and are forgetting about ourselves and the middle east is still in agony. I happened to be a teenager long time ago, and I still remember that a man/woman relationship is very fragile leading things to escalate the wrong way even when the intentions are good on both sides. For example, I'm an engineer and some male engineers are in the habit of putting their arms in coworkers shoulders or backs. They give eachothers back and neck rubs, go to happy hour, and when we go on trips they may fall asleep on each other shoulders....Where's the harm? I really dunno where's the harm, but I don't engage in it, because it will fundementally changes my relationship with my male parteners that be a coworker or a boss, and I think in school, a female needs to hold a similar prespective, so that she is viewed in the correct light without jeoperdizing her great asset for unwarrented for often harmfull unformality. Same like I advoate for separation of state and religion, I advocate separating the love life and the professional life, and school is the most important professional milestone for a person. Actually I don't, but the same question was asked by many Atheists. You invlove your personal beliefs so little in religion that I was not able to formulate any openions about your faith....which is perfectly okay and the way it should be. Your faith is a private business that only you can reveal if you wish of course.
For a couple of reasons, actually. First of all, religion in itself is for the weak-minded. Now I don't mean stupid, but the practice of religion lends itself to a lack of self-esteem. These are people who don't trust in themselves enough to follow moral code for the sake of doing good, or fear failure so much that they follow God's rule so they can have a reason for the things they do. Now, understand that the laws pertaining to sex in this book are interpreted and passed onto us by men who are forbidden sex and are frustrated. These people claim to have knowledge of the dangers of sex, and the morals invovled in sex, when in fact they have never had sex, or not in long enough to remember they beauty of it. Sexually bankrupt people have no business telling you or me how to run our sex lives...but they realize that, and hence that is why the Bible says "God doesn't want premarital sex" becuase who they hell would listen to a bunch of virgin preachers? OF course, that is conjecture, and I have no proof that the Bible has been changed over the years, though common sense tells you it was, as do stories of King James, but off-hand I have none. But I will say this: The act of sex is nothing to be ashamed of. To repress it is unnatural and dangerous psychologically. For a moment, I ask you to think for yourself.
You are talking out of your butt. How does a belief in a universal creator and adhering to universal law be characterised as weak minded. If anything it's viceversa, those that take every measure to twist the truth and escape such laws are the weak minded who don't have a decipline bone in their body. Sex is everything to be ashamed of when done with the wrong person if you happen to have a shame bone in your body of course, but you can go ahead and hump everything in sight that will agree to your twisted ways and tell me how you feel about it. I don't know about you, but being a whore, contracting AIDS and Sexually transmitted diseace, destroying my marriage, and devastating my kids are not my idea of being natural and staying psychological ept.
How does a belief in a universal creator and adhering to universal law be characterised as weak minded First of all, they are mutually exclusive – universal law has little to do with a creator. Science is hard, and those who are of weak minds are not interested in doing things that are hard. They would much rather fall back on a simple answer; “God did it.”
yeah, as much as you creating a car have nothing to do with the fact that their exist rules of driving it, like you can't fly for instance and you should change your oil every three month or three thousand miles. Yeah, that's the way fools who only take a surface look view it, theists and Atheists alike...You seem like a life member of that club.
yeah, as much as you creating a car have nothing to do with the fact that their exist rules of driving it, like you can't fly for instance and you should change your oil every three month or three thousand miles. Huh? :bugeye: Yeah, that's the way fools who only take a surface look view it, theists and Atheists alike Bravo! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Twist the truth? And what truth is that? That there is a universal creator? That isn't a truth, that's a belief which isn't backed by any evidence. Read that again....there. is. no. evidence. I don't twist truth, I search for it. I ask why, and won't let myself fall into the trap of "Because God said so." For me, and anyone else who has an inquiring mind, that isn't good enough. Everything else in the universe requires examination and explanation, why shouldn't the questions regarding God? Belief in a universal creator is an indicator of being weak-minded for the simple fact that those who believe in it are going on the words in a nearly two thousand year old book which has been changed and edited and based on older writings with different characters and plots. On top of that, there has never been a shred of evidence that can be linked to the existance of said "God", not one, yet you believe. You fell into the comfort of a structured system of laws and beliefs which don't allow you to exercise your imagination, ask questions, or live life. Better yet, they don't allow you to think for yourself. You're never asked in church, or mosque, or temple, "Does anyone here have proof of God?" Instead, you have these ideas crammed down your throat which prevent you from making moral decisions on your own. THAT is a red f'n flag of weak-mindedness. Well, I'm not married, and I've had sex, yet I'm not ashamed. I'm not proud of some things I've done, but none of them involved whom I've had sex with. (I guess this is what you'd call a "Shame Bone", you rocket scientist, you) See, this idea that sex is shameful wasn't one you came up with. This is a third-party idea introduced to you by your church, or some other overly-religious person. Believe it, becuase it's true. So if I'm a whore, and I hump a lot of women, I should be ashamed? Of what? I don't have any STDs, no illegitimate children, no wife to cheat on, nor any kids to devestate. Why should I be ashamed? Because I don't live up to your moral code? Well, my moral code involves treating humans, animals and the Earth fairly, and helping any of the above who need it; it has nothign to do with who I bang. Of course, I won't sleep with my friend's wife, nor will I cheat on my wife or devestate my children when I meet her and have them. If that makes me bad in your eyes, then close them. JD
The moral code that you don't respect is the only order and protector of your life. If people can have sex as they please before they get married, then how do you keep account of the children born to such pass time activity, and how do you ensure that you don't later hump your daughter. I'm a woman, but if I was a man, it would have drove me nuts to not know the extent of premarital activity that my wife was involved in. Plus, you say that your moral code involve treating humans and animals and earth fairly. How arrogant, what do you know about animals and earth beside visiting the zoo and harboring a couple of domesticate dogs and cats...you call that animals? And you say your moral code involves treating the earth fairly, so tell us your share in reducing greenhouse, restoring eroded streams and rivers, reforesting lands, preventing overgrazing and over development, researching clean fuels. Please elaborate on your moral code, for I feel we should all adopt your awesome moral code and then you're excused to go back to being shallow, drinking and raping the rest of your community.
