Do Homosexuals Need to be Healed of their Homosexuality? *A must read*

Do Homosexuals Need to be Healed of their Homosexuality?
(as answered by a gay Christian biologist)
by Joseph Adam Pearson, Ph.D.

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I have written this for those whose guilt has been etched deeply by the official positions of various Christian denominations as well as for those whose pain has been exacerbated by the unkindnesses shown to them through the actions and reactions of church-goers. It is my hope and prayer that the seeming dilemma between homosexuality and Christianity be resolved and a higher spiritual understanding of sexuality be settled within their minds once and for all, both now and throughout the rest of their earthly days.

The overwhelming majority of people believe that homosexuality is immoral. I do not. I believe that homosexuality is amoral and that homosexuals individually are either moral or immoral.

Within the Bible, we are informed that "God is no respecter of persons."[2] I believe that. And, I believe it applies not only to earthly appearance but also to physical expression, personality, and sexual orientation. I believe that the Creator cares not one jot, iota, or yod about any aspect of our being human except that we try to reflect Him and His loving ways in all that we do. Spiritually speaking, love is the only real thing that can be multiplied and bear fruit.[3] I do not believe that any sexuality (heterosexuality or homosexuality) is an expression of God. Rather, I believe that sexuality is, at worst, a parody of --- or, at best, a parable of --- the creative powers of the Lord God Almighty and the communion His saints have with one another in their at-one-ment with Him.

Some time back, while pondering the idea that I had a spiritual message to convey, this malingering thought would press to the forefront of my consciousness: "Who will believe what you have to say? You are a homosexual." I was troubled, because, although I felt comfortable with my sexuality, I felt most others would be uncomfortable with it (to put it mildly). I felt sure that any good that I might try to do would be prefaced by: "Dr. Pearson, an acknowledged homosexual . . . " I knew people would erroneously use what I was to try to define who I was, and am.

I remember mentally working out arguments to justify and vindicate my homosexuality should I ever come to public or private trial concerning it until --- one day after earnestly praying to the Lord for an answer to give my then-imagined, but perhaps now-real, detractors --- I inwardly heard (writing while hearing) these words from the Holy Spirit:

"If I am cursed, then I am joined to my Master, who was cursed of all men. In this, then, do I rejoice that I am cursed of men, for in that curse I receive the blessing of God wherewith I am received into the body of Christ: rejected by man but accepted by God, and delivered by Him from the hand of my own iniquity and sin."
Yes, it's true, the Lord God Almighty answered my prayer! Not only that, but the answer swept over and settled in my soul. I understood. I heard. It spoke to me as no biological, psychological or sociological argument could. Later, in Bible study, I came to better understand the scriptural foundations for the answer I received:

In his letter to the Corinthians in Galatia, St. Paul wrote: "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree.'"[4] Paul was referring to the Old Testament passage that states: "He that is hanged is cursed of God."[5] While we all know that Jesus was not hanged in the now-common sense of the word --- and certainly was not lifted up to the limb of a sycamore tree --- he was hanged in the sense that the ancients understood the word, that is, "hanged up" for all to see. You see, hanging was viewed primarily as a warning to potential wrongdoers. In many cases, bodies were hung up after execution rather than for execution. Both the Apostles Paul and Peter independently affirm their acceptance of that usage through their allusions to the hanging of Christ.[6] In other words, Jesus also --- which is to say, like homosexuals --- had been cursed by the letter of Mosaic law.

Thus, as I now understand it, what the Lord's Holy Spirit said to me was this:

In that Christ Jesus, God's Chosen, was made a mock for us that we might be reconciled to the Creator, and that His crucifixion won us pardon (if we so believe), so then does God's mercy extend to all souls in dust who feel the scorn of the lion (that is, the Devil) through the unkindnesses of humankind. The Creator will not turn His love away from any who suffer --- even if they suffer only a fraction of the passion of His firstborn --- for they remind Him of His Son. In other words, in the Creator's sight all reviled are joined to the one who suffered the ultimate rejection.
On a number of occassions, I have heard the following statement uttered by so-called Christian fundamentalists to combat the possible social acceptance of homosexuality: "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." The ignorance of that statement astounds me both as a Christian and as a biologist. Because it is simplistic and reductionist, the statement fails to take into consideration the multivariate nature of this world. It fails to take into consideration that there might be a third kind or gender, not neuter but "gay."

Many unusual phenomena related to sexual identity occur within the natural world. For example: 1) Certain avians and fish undergo spontaneous sex reversals and are even capable of reproduction in their newfound gender. 2) Various unfertilized insect eggs develop into males. 3) The females of specific flying insects possess "XY" sex chromosomes and the males possess "XX," and even some human anamolies exist in which anatomic females have "XY" chromosomes and anatomic males have "XX" chromosomes. 4) An all-female species of fish has been discovered, the Amazon molly, whose eggs develop through parthenogenesis (stimulation of ova without the customary fusion of male and female cells). And, most importantly, 5) a whole range of human intersex states exist that fit on a continuum between normal male and female anatomical sex (normal used here in the sense of "population-normed," or "that which occurs most frequently").

The issue of human sex identity is a complex one. There are many legitimate questions regarding the genetic (or, chromosomal) status, phenotypic (or, anatomical) status, psychological (or, gender identification) status, and sociological (or, society-assigned) status of sex identity. In humans, sex identity may be determined by chromosome composition (46,XX for female and 46,XY for male). However, genetic testing is not always the best indicator of sex. Why? There are a fair number of individuals who fall into intersex categories. For instance: 1) those with abnormal chromosome composition (including 47,XXY; 45,X; and, 45,X/46,XY mosaics); 2) genetic males who differentiate into anatomical females due to androgen inaction or insensitivity; and, 3) genetic females who differentiate into anatomical males from exposure to abnormally high amounts of androgens either in utero from their mothers' hyperactive adrenal glands or post partum from their own hyperactive adrenal glands.

Since as many as 0.1% of the population fall into intersex status categories,[7] there may be more than 6,000,000 people on earth whose sexual identities are in question using one basis for classification or another. Since these people are not "real" Adams or "real" Eves (the definition of real here left in question), are we to assume that intersex individuals were not created by God? No. We should never use the presence, absence, or size of external genitalia; numbers and kinds of chromosomes; sex hormone blood levels; or muscle dimensions to classify "real" men and "real" women.

Though sex identity is not equivocal with sexual orientation (however, from a statistical standpoint, the two are positively correlated), the point I am trying to make is that not all things are as black and white as some Christian fundamentalists would like them to be. Today, within the biological community there is legitimate debate about the biological basis of homosexuality in the light of recent scientific work that links brain morphology and sexual preference as well as research on identitical and fraternal twins that demonstrates statistical significance in favor of a genetic contribution to sexual orientation. Thus, it is more than likely that some seemingly unnatural and sinful behavior ("unnatural" and "sinful" from the standpoint of Christian Fundamentalism) is part of nature. Then, are we to assume that God makes only some people and not others? Or, are we to assume that some Christians are ignorant of truth? To be sure, it is somewhat queer to me that so many have abandoned the foundational Christian principle of love in order to judge and condemn others about whom they know so little. The only way that Christian Fundamentalism proves that some people are not really of God is through the hatred it has engendered.

Yes, there was a time when no blemished thing could come before the Lord, as indicated by the following passage from the Bible: "He that is wounded in the stones [testicles] or has his private member [penis] cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."[8]

However, during Old Covenant times, the Lord God Almighty was trying to establish within the hearts and minds of some very primitive people that He is sovereign and that He is worthy of perfect sacrifice (of which Christ Jesus was to become, and remain, the only embodiment), much the same as He established His tabernacle and its appointments as a figure of things in heaven.[9] Remember, according to the Old Testament, the people of that day were "sticknecked" and "rebellious," ungrateful for the things that the Lord was doing for them, and gross with regard to spiritual understanding. Concerning them, even Moses had this to say: "'Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the [first] day that I knew you.'"[10] Thus, in order to help them subdue an unyielding spirit, they were subjected to various rules, regulations, and ordinances by the Lord.

In the Book of Acts, it is recorded that St. Philip was directed by an Angel of the Lord, as well as by God's Holy Spirit, to minister the gospel to an Ethiopian eunuch so that he could accept Jesus as the Messiah.[11] If during the early days of the New Testament, a eunuch (who would have been prohibited by the letter of Mosaic law from approaching the Lord) could receive salvation, then surely during these latter days homosexuals (also cut off from the congregation of the Lord by the letter of Mosaic law) can be saved --- that is, received by Christ into His Kingdom. To be sure, homosexuals do not need to be saved from their homosexuality, unless of course they are indulging in a hedonistic and sinful lifestyle, just as any heterosexual in bondage to lust of the flesh needs to be saved from that appetite. It is spiritually and emotionally unhealthy for anyone to view others as objects for self- gratification.

St. Luke wrote, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone presses into it."[12] St. John wrote, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."[13] And, St. Paul wrote: 1) "You are not under the law, but under grace;" 2) "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteems one thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean;" 3) "The letter [of the law] kills, but the spirit [of love] gives life;" and, 4) "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.'"[14] Keep in mind that it was those who were legalistically-minded (that is, strict adherents to the letter of Mosaic law) that were offended by Jesus' deeds and eventually saw to it that he was condemned to death. Also, those who call themselves Christian should remember that at one time even the Gentiles were not part of God's chosen.[15]

Why can't more believers in Christ be like St. Peter, who said, "God has showed me that I should not call any man 'common' or 'unclean.'"[16] No one is permitted by the Lord God to judge or condemn another: "You are not pardoned, O man, whoever you are that judges: for wherein you judge another, you condemn yourself."[17]

I am saddened that, for many Christians, the issue of AIDS has been turned into an issue of homosexuality. Why am I saddened? I think homosexuality is one area in which the organized Christian Church has given sanction to anti-Christian attitudes of condemnation and judgment as well as behaviors that are offensive to Christ, all of which turn many away from where they might be looking during their final days. The spirit of condemnation now operates through many who profess that Jesus is their Savior. It runs rampant through their hearts and minds and souls. For some strange reason, it "sets right" with many Christians --- at least many that I have heard and seen--- to take such a stand.

Once, when visiting a self-identified "spirit-filled" church, I heard the pastor make a joke about homosexuals during his sermon. It received a good laugh from the audience; however, it made me feel badly for those homosexuals who may have been in the congregation and who had already suffered rejection by many and were seeking the Lord, only to be rejected (that is, made fun of) by one of His "servants." Brothers and sisters, believe me, whenever cruelty raises its ugly head, you can be sure that whoever raises it is not testifying of Jesus' love and power to save.

Like King David --- who chose to have retribution meted out by pestilence rather than by the hand of man[18] --- I think that the Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) should be feared less than men. Viruses come nowhere near the power of evil that can be generated through human beings who have given themselves over to malice, malevolence, and condemnation. Certainly, humans are responsible for more damage and suffering than any infectious agent.

Yes, there are those Christians who would agree that homosexuals may be "saved" but only on the condition that they repent and change their ways (that is, not act on their sexual orientation). From my vantage point, it is plain that such as these believe corporeal flesh to be the true reflection and likeness of God as well as believe that the carnal nature, which animates that flesh, to be His Nature, --- ideas that I see as entirely incongruous and erroneous. Really, there is little I can say to clarify my views on homosexuality for them, because, for as long as they hold to such thinking, their understanding of sexuality (among other things) will remain earthbound: they will not be able to grasp God's indifference to sexual orientation. (Do not misinterpret here that I am saying the Lord is indifferent to human behavior.)

For those who are genuinely struggling to reconcile what they feel inside is true concerning homosexuality with the views of the Christianity they love so much (such views seemingly at variance with those feelings), I need to add this:

When I pretended that I was a heterosexual so others might accept me, I was in effect rejecting God because I was living a lie. It was not until I became honest with myself and others that I was able to come to the real truth, which is to say, to the reality of Christ. That is not to say that I believe homosexuals have a licence to licentiousness. Quite to the contrary, no. Unless one has been called to celibacy, I believe in the unadulterated sharing of the life and love of the Lord within the sanctity of a monogamous relationship. I believe that one of the highest relationships that can be achieved among souls within this earthly flesh is the one attained between two faithful helpmates who put God first and each other second. My mate and I have been with each other for 21 years (as of 1998) and neither one of us has been unfaithful to the other. This is one of the "secrets" to the longevity of our relationship.

What determines whether an individual is homosexual or heterosexual, I do not know. As a biologist, I believe that the cause may be different for different individuals. Perhaps there are some cases that are environmentally-caused, some emotionally-caused, others genetically- and/or hormonally-caused, and still others caused by a combination of any or all of those factors. However, with some psychotherapeutic exceptions, I don't think the cause should really matter. What I do think should matter is that no one become enslaved to sexuality or to fears concerning it. I even think that the so-called "curse" of homosexuality can be turned into a blessing for those homosexuals who do not become involved in a frenetic escape from it in sexual addiction or in unhealthy repression of their own homosexual feelings. How? Through the challenge it presents. To perceive that one does not fit into an accepted mold or pattern can help lead one to the conclusion that people who are spiritually-minded are really strangers, foreigners, and pilgrims in this world. Such recogntion is necessary, I think, before we can be fully returned to a heavenly home, where God expresses Himself through us without measure. With adversity, rejection, and suffering often comes enlightenment; however, generally speaking, the gifts of adversity, rejection, and suffering are not often gratefully received by souls in dust nor viewed as spiritual gifts. (I am not saying here that we should abrogate our responsibility to be active politically, demonstrate publicly, and stand up for our rights in outrageous ways.)

To those Christians who grieve because of how they perceive their own homosexuality or the homosexuality of someone they truly love, I would like to call their attention to something else St. Paul wrote: "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in His Presence.[19]

I challenge them to evaluate that word of wisdom in the context of homosexuality and today's world. Also, to evaluate the relationship of this world to the sphere in which God operates and His true Shekinah-glory is manifested. The Lord God Almighty does not care that narrow-minded heterosexuals playing religion might be offended if He accepts homosexuals into His Kingdom. In fact, God often chooses to confound people who think they have all of the answers. "No flesh should glory" also means that neither heterosexuals nor homosexuals should think that one sexual orientation is better than the other: Though it is perfectly alright to celebrate our sexuality, no human being should revel in animal instincts.

Now, some of the things that the Apostle Paul has written must be understood in terms of their historical and cultural contexts. For example, that which concerns a woman's long hair being "a glory to her," or that which commands women to "keep silence in the churches."[20] Such is not the case in his absolutism about God choosing to exalt things that are despised by men. It reminds me of God saying to Moses: "I WILL BE GRACIOUS TO WHOM I WILL BE GRACIOUS, AND WILL BESTOW MERCY UPON WHOM I WILL BESTOW MERCY."[21] It reminds me of this praise that Nebuchadnezzar offered God: "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He does according to His Will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and no one can stay His hand, or say unto Him, 'What doest Thou?'"[22] It reminds me of Christ Jesus' saying to Peter concerning that Apostle's speculation about what would happen to "John the beloved" (the man that Jesus loved): "'If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you?'"[23] It reminds me of the heavenly voice which spoke to Peter and said, "'What God has cleansed, call not unclean.'"[24] Finally, it reminds me of the Lord's response to Paul when besought by that man to remove a thorn from his flesh: "'My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.'"[25]

If the Lord God Almighty has chosen to extend His dispensation to homosexuals (and I believe He has), then who are mere mortals to tell Him that He cannot or that He should not? The Lord chooses to whom He is merciful (thank goodness mankind does not choose, for no one would have ever become a Christian). Who are any of us to question the authority or the sovereignty of the Lord God Almighty. What audacity! How full of self-pride and willfulness that is!

To my friends who happen to be homosexual, I write this: Because the world is afraid of us (it always fears what it does not understand), it has tried to suppress the natural development of our affections and emotions. And, since it has tried to repress the healthy expression of our sexual orientation as well as suppress knowledge of our existence, many of us --- without positive role models of any kind --- were consigned by society to lead lives in sordid, backroom-type, sinful activities. Because our personalities were fragmented, we were eaten up from the inside out by unhealthy sexual desires. However, it is time for us to break from the bondage of such a mental, emotional, and spiritual miasma. We need to resist the unhealthiness and sinfulness engendered by prevailing attitudes and actions propelled by Satan's spirit of condemnation. We need to take charge of our lives. We need to understand that our Creator loves us and that He couldn't care less about our sexual orientation (unless we have not come to terms with it).

What are the responsibilities of homosexuals? They are the same as heterosexuals. In Romans we read, "I beseech you, therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."[26] Thus, we should accept our rejection by mankind as well as our acceptance by God, taking time to be holy all the while. (Again, this is not to say that we should be passive in our struggle for justice and equality.)

When they feel especially sad and lonely, shouldn't homosexuals be able to turn to the one who knew the ultimate rejection, Christ, that their burdens might be shared? Can not Christians who happen to be homosexual have the same hope as Christians who happen to be heterosexual? Are homosexuals covered by God's grace? Yes, yes, and yes. Believe me, daily I prove God's saving grace and I witness of it to you.

If you happen to be heterosexual, perhaps none of what I have written here makes sense to you. That's all right. Just remember to keep your judgments to yourself, to refain from unkindness to me and others like me, and to try and not be too surprised when you meet many of us in heaven. And, if the idea of "faggots"[27]burning brightly for God is repugnant to you, then perhaps you are not yet fit for the Kingdom of God. For this reason, I pray that you permit God to change you.

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FOOTNOTES

[1] c 1994 by Joseph Adam Pearson (TXU 643-369 United States Copyright Office). From an earlier, unpublished version c 1992 by Joseph Adam Pearson, Ph.D. (TXU 528 551). Back To Article
(2) Acts 10:34. See also: 2 Samuel 14:14, 2 Chronicles 19:7, Romans 2:11, Ephesians 6:9, and 1 Peter 1:17.
(3) Read Genesis 1:28 and Mark 12:28-31.
(4) Galatians 3:13.
(5) Deuteronomy 21:23.
(6) With regard to Paul, see Acts 13:39; and, concerning Peter, see Acts 5:30, Acts 10:39, and 1 Peter 2:24.
(7) Jean D. Wilson, M.D., 1992, "Sex Testing in International Athletics," Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol. 267, No. 6, page 853.
(8) Deuteronomy 23:1. See also Leviticus 21:16-20.
(9) Refer to Hebrews, especially Chapters 9 and 10.
(10) Deuteronomy 9:24. Back To Article
(11) Acts 8:26-39.
(12) Luke 16:16.
(13) John 1:17.
(14) Romans 6:14 & 14:14; 2 Corinthians 3:6; and, Galatians 5:14.
(15) Refer to Romans, Chapter 9.
(16) Acts 10:28.
(17) Romans 2:1.
(18) 2 Samuel 24:13-15.
(19) 1 Corinthians 1:27-29.
(20) 1 Corinthians 11:15 & 14:35.Back To Article
(21) Exodus 33:19.
(22) Daniel 4:35.
(23) John 21:22.
(24) Acts 10:15.
(25) 2 Corinthians 12:9.
(26) Romans 12:1. Further pertinent verses are found in 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 and 6:18-20.
(27) Spiritually speaking, faggots are "embers."

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Do homosexuals need to be healed of their homosexuality?

Do left-handed people need to be healed of their left-handedness?

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

 

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Right on, Oxygen!! Good question..good point.

 

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Short answer, No.

More complex answer: Work out more important problems in society, such as why people turn to drugs, why people turn to crime, why a whining electorate won't put an end to the silliness it bemoans ... put some money and effort into edcuation, don't make it subject to monetary returns. Now, when we work out important problems, we can then start wondering whether or not we need to subject yet another segment of our free society to forced moral propriety.

Moral abstraction:

* I hate you.
- Why?
* Because you're wrong.
- How do you know?
* Because I know.
- I think you're wrong that I'm wrong.
* That would be valid, but I have to consider the bias of the source. So, you're still wrong.
- How can I make you stop hating me?
* Stop being yourself.

When homosexuality was a psych disorder, people thought the should "cure" homosexuality.

When homosexuality was thought to be biological, people hoped they could genetically "cure" homosexuality.

When homosexuality was recognized simply as behavior, people decided that Liberty was too much, and demanded that in Liberty's name, other people give up Liberty.

It takes two to tango. It takes two to fight. It takes two for one to let the other pummel him upside the head. The Moralists of our culutre need to pull their heads out of their asses so they can at least see who they're swinging at.

thanx,
Tiassa

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

Well Tiassa, if homosexuality is a behavior, then why can't it be changed? Seems the homosexuals are saying it's something that can't change.

So what is it?

 

Pashley--

All of those limited expressions of homosexuality are the result of political fights we wouldn't have gone through were it not for the failure of religiously-empowered persons to recognize that their empowerment by God might possibly be as falsely founded as the sexuality they so abhor.

By the way, put a ball bearing down on a slope. Describe its behavior. Now, can that behavior be changed without changing the fundamental conditions the ball bearing is subject to (angle of surface in relation to gravity, mass, &c.) Bottom-line: behavior as a word only applies to will when we are speaking directly of will. Human behavior can be of will, as you have described it in your musings about why people other than yourself can't fundamentally change themselves to be more like you. Human behavior can also be observed without such petty considerations. Learn to do this, and you'll see that nitpicking behavior between contexts is, in this case, an exercise best left for the desperate.

thanx,
Tiassa

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

Oh please, so you are saying that just because someone is predisposed to a behavior, they have no power to change it. Typical feel-good liberal "i'm ok-you're ok" junk.

And i will thank you to leave the snide remarks about me out of your posts. I don't expect everyone to be like me, but do i expect everyone to not build an identity around a genital like SOME people do...

 

Pash--

Strike you a deal. If you stop being utterly, groundlessly dismissive, then I won't have to keep my sense of humor so close about me. I mean, really ... to reduce this to feel-good liberal "i'm ok, you're ok" junk really puts you in a bad position.

I mean, what you're asserting is that the propriety of human conduct is subject to modern political labels. Four and a half billion years of planet and life, and the best you can come up with is human conduct as a political position.

Some people ... like yourself? I mean, those other people who build an identity around a genital ... well, unlike you, they're often capable of building around their own. You, however, are fixated with other people's genitals.

Oh ... I'm sorry, was that snide? Actually, I don't think so. It's all in comparative context. For instance, I can read how that paragraph is snide. On the other hand, when compared to the snide reality you've asked me to comment on, it seems perfectly appropriate.

So, if I'm reading your last couple of posts correctly .... Well, if I'm reading your last snippet correctly, you're still missing the point.

Okay--the word "behavior" has a definition that is independent of two factors you fail to consider: 1--That behavior can be defined in a manner independent of personal will, and 2--Behavior can be defined under the weight of a perspective that--goshy gee!--isn't your own.

Observe any group of people in an area. One of my favorites is when you compare the actions of the people in Atlanta when the Olympic bomb went off and when you watch a group of deer at the moment of a gunshot. The reactions are identical--freeze, look, scatter. Do you see? You're watching human activity the same way you watch monkeys or big cats or flocks of birds. The behavior you observe then will be independent of your own prejudices. You can define it by your own prejudices, but that doesn't mean that what you see is what's really going on.

The only reason "behavior", in any definition, "needs" to be changed is when someone perceives it in discord with an assumed (assumed = false) propriety.

But I can't afford the time to keep taking you by the hand and walking you around the little cracks in the sidewalk. You can't possibly be so out of "logic" that you're reduced to this brand of pointless delay effort.

winks,
Tiassa

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited May 31, 2000).]

 

Tiassa-

Wonderfully illustrated. It should be stated, though, that it takes two to shake hands, two to discuss, and two to reach an agreement.

Behavior is one of two types. Controllable and uncontrollable. A child of sufficient age and knowledge to determine right from wrong is perfectly capable of controlling his or her behavior. He or she can choose not to act up in the museum. That same child, cannot control the behavior that, say, reacts favorably to a Monet painting. Which of these two behavior types does homosexuality fall into in your defintion of 'behavior'? I don't believe it's controllable. It's part of that person's genetic make-up, as is the preference for one kind of food over another. You can't help it if you like your steak rare. You can order it well-done, but that won't change the fact that you like it rare.

If homosexuality was 'curable', would we, as a society, have the right to 'cure' someone who didn't want to be 'cured'? Being gay isn't life threatening, nor is it contagious. You don't 'get gay' by hanging around homosexuals (I'm praying to the god of atheism that everybody knows that

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). What threat is it to heterosexuals?

AIDS, ah, now there's a different story, but anybody can get it if they're not careful.

I guess I should end this with "Cure AIDS, not gays."

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

 

Oxygen--

Every once in a while, I need that perspective.

For later purposes, here exists a fundamental perspective difference that drives me bonkers; as you have pointed out, by proxy or intent, so long as we continue to view ourselves in terms of fighting factions, so it shall be.

I sit here strangely humbled by my own fundamental oversight. I have no idea why it is so affecting, except that it is a wonderful point hitherto overlooked.

thanx,
Tiassa

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

Hm, just realized I haven't posted on this thread yet. Not like there is a question as to where I stand though, is there?

Do homosexuals need to be cured: Of course not. It's a pity this question ever needed to be asked.

Gee, that was way too easy!!

 

Homosexuality or any sexuality for that matter is not inherent for crying out loud!!! And it's not a dag-gone disease that needs to be cured either. I mean how convenient would that be? Any type of "sexuality" is a socially contrived label that is based upon many different biological and/or environmental factors. THERE IS NO HOMO GENE OK????? And until someone shows me one, let's can the whole "I'm magically homosexual" or "I'm magically straight" BS shall we?

Homosexuality is nothing more than gender discrimination. Period. And anything is possible with God, ESPECIALLY BUSTING YOUR PARADIGMS ALL TO HELL AND BACK. Discrimination based soley upon one's genitals doesn't seem to me like it would be too very difficult to "cure". It's like....hello, it just doesn't make any damn sense!!!!! Does any form of discrimination make sense? How about discrimination against homosexuals Flash? Do you appreciate the discrimination that you are subject to? No, I didn't think so.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

 

I do like the idea that God could or would be accepting of any person that puts their faith in God for their salvation. Though I don't agree with the idea that homosexuality is natural, both in humans or animals. Ask yourself what purpose it serves in nature? And why such a small percentage? I think that God accepts us as we are, knows our weaknesses, failures, and joys. But I'm sure that we are not supposed to stay in whatever state God finds us, otherwise criminals and liars could remain as they are. If God works in your life, there has to be change. Can homosexuals change? I don't know, I guess it depends on whether its nature or nurture that makes people that way.
No matter what side you fall on, you and I have to rationalize our lives to ourselves and others. That our beliefs, customs, traditions, our way of thinking is correct or valid. The nature of our thought processes, experiences, beliefs, environment; the things that make us unique, probably gives us our worldview. The type of things or beliefs that we think are true, how we color our world depends on the 'rose-colored glasses we put on'.
As a Christian for the past 15 out of my 45 years, I have come to the conclusion that there really is a God, that we as persons are imperfect, that we can rationalize anything, that we are and can be bright, beautiful and full of wonder!
To get back to the biological side, in nature, are there stress factors involved? I seem to remember that most of the cases cited are when there is an inbalance in nature. Too many males or females. For all you scientists and others interested, watch the future implecations of the unintended experiment that China is conducting. For the last several decades China has had a one child policy for couples. Since Chinese traditions value males more than females, through abortion and abandonment more males have been born there. I'm thinking that as more and more young Chinese males get to adulthood, something has to happen. Either we'll see an increase of homosexuality, life-long bachleorhood or an exodus of immigrants to lands that have an abundance of females (Australia and the U.S. come to mind). Just a thought on the possible consequences of social policy.
On the personal revelation question, I don't think that being 'illuminated' or 'enlightened' have any bearing or weight in any religious discussion. First because we don't know whether its from God, if the message is for us only, if its are hopes and wishes, or whether its false teaching. I'm sure that Joseph Smith and Mohammad thought their messages were from God. But I beg to differ.
I've had a varied education; art, science, history, & etc. as a life-long learner and college graduate. Having said that, I don't think a college degree confers any authority or value on anything that a person says or does. Our ideas have to (or should) be judged by people on their merits, by logic or whatever we use as a measuring stick. I don't think self-published books or theses can be used as authoritative works. But there was a lot to think about.
Anyway, Christ did say to love one another, unfortunately we use swords(real and figurative) more often! I do hope to be surprised by all the people who go to Heaven!!! If any of my ideas or anyone elses, don't hold water, well either plug the leak or shoot it full of more holes. Anyway, thats what I think!

[This message has been edited by Randolfo (edited June 24, 2000).]

 

Randolfo,
So because you do not see what purpose homosexuality serves from a nature standpoint... this makes it wrong? Hmmmm.. I suppose you could look at it that way..which causes me look at some of the heterosexual couples who are unable to produce children..I guess that too would be wrong...what purpose would it serve?

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So because the percentage of homosexuals are low in comparison to heterosexuals...it also shows it is wrong? This really has me puzzled. I have spoke with other christians that have stated that very same thing. I just do not see the logic of deeming something wrong all because the majority of the people do not act or think that way. To me what this says is because someone is different we should not accept them. Kinda harsh..isn't it? You know it was the majority who once thought the world was flat..it was the majority who once thought blacks should not be freed...who once thought women did not have the right to vote..and it was the majority who persecuted Jesus and put him on the cross...did that make it right?

 

Flash: Whether I accept anyones' ideas, culture, or lifestyle does not have anything to do with whether I accept them as a person. I've known, worked with, worked for, had clients, have friends and family that ranged from every spectrum of the rainbow. And I don't think its being very big of me to do that, its just a part of life to learn to get along with others. And I hope you don't need others to validate your existance or life choices?
From the title of this topic I gather that its an open religious question, and from the contents of the first post I gather that the author feels compelled to state that God accepts gay christians and therefore all christians should accept gays.
From a christian perspective, I don't feel that that is true. Read Acts and the Apostles' letters to the early Church and see if they didn't expect God's power to change your life. They didn't expect Christians to conform to society, but to struggle with it and live under the rules of God's kingdom. And you will also notice that even then the early Church had to struggle with members that wanted to do things their way. What is right? we have to choose for ourselves. Hopefully our choices will conform with God's.
I have yet to be convinced that homosexuality is not an environmental or lifestyle choice. The biggest proponents and opponents have so much at stake on this very question, that its hard for them to see it in an objective light. To me its a cultural choice that people either make or fall into, like joining a frat, a gang or being preppies. What goes inside peoples' minds as they make choices depends on the social, emotional and psychological skills and experiences they have had.
Having lived and worked in East Los Angeles, I've known and seen people make choices that led them to join gangs, they saw no other choice. Its a culture that accepts its members with open arms, and has aspects of it that satisfy most human needs. They belong to them because its their family, their neighborhood, their life. (An aside, Chicano gangs have called their lifestyle 'La Vida Loca' for more than 30 years. So everytime I hear that song, I can see gangsters singing it. What a hoot!!). Try convincing them that its better to go straight and even if they know you're right, they can not see any way to leave it. Because its all around them, its in their head, their friends and homies. To them they have no choice! They're gangsters! End of story.
If its a part of nature, thats another question. Because then we need to know why it happens? is it a mutation? are there advantages to it? is it part of natural selection? or are they being selected out? Anyway, we may debate this for years until there is a definite answer. So for now, see ya!!

 

Randolfo,

Yeah, and if you'll read some of Paul's letters to the early Church, you'll see that he also expected women to live very much under the thumbs of the men, presumably in an effort to conform to the rules of society existing at that time (or so I'm told by those who supposedly "know"). Is that right? I'm sorry if this seems like I'm getting off the subject, but I feel it's relevant. I have a difficult time putting the apostles in charge of determining what's right and what's wrong, when I feel they got this one so wrong. Do you see my point?

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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

If I may, I think that you are both missing the point in different ways. It's not about the act, it's about the intent behind the act. It's about sin and it's affect on people. Seriously, if you're trying to decide on right vs wrong, in any kind of relationship, you've got to look at intentions. So barring malintent, then what's wrong with homosexuality? Barring malintent, what's wrong with heterosexuality? Trick questions, cause such a thing doesn't even really exist. I think that "sexuality" is bogus. I honestly think that given all of the diversity within the human race, and specifically within the feminine vs masculine spectrum, and the fact that sex is supposed to be based upon mutual respect and love and trust, and who a person is on the inside anyway, it's safe to conclude that the ONLY real reason that a person would label themselves either homosexual or heterosexual is based ultimately on gender discrimination. And I'm sorry, but I think that there's something awry with that. Shit, I know it. It all goes back to those damned "natural tendencies". It's lust! Hello, am I the only one out here who has the balls to admit it?

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I mean, I can't not fess up here, cause I live this shit ok? It's reality. Ok, so ideally, is it a good idea to base a sexual relationship on a physical trait of any kind? So is it ok to base a sexual relationship ultimately on which particular sex organ a person has? Well, it's not if it has to do with physical attraction, or what turns you on, or whatever. I, myself, go beyond the black and white in the Bible. You can't just say, "Well, those are the laws, whether you understand them or not, or you're inclined to, just do as you're told". That's not ok. There are a lot of really, really valid and truthful reasons why men and women should be together, and have sex, in committed, loving relationships. Can you think of some reasons? I can.

And Searcher!!! The Bible does NOT say that!!! Stop that crapola right now, you don't understand what you're talking about. And dag it, I've tried to explain it to you. You just won't let it go? That is NOT what the Bible says, and that is NOT what Jesus says or is about. Not at all.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 25, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 25, 2000).]

 

Lori,

I don't understand what I'm talking about? I suspect that I've read a lot more of the Bible than you have - remember that I attended seminary for a year just to study the New Testament? I know how much you hate it when I quote the Bible, so do you really want me to do that again? It may not contain the same vernacular that I used, but it does say that women should be submissive to their husbands, and that women should not be in a position to teach men, and women should keep quiet in church, and keep their heads covered in church...

Jesus may not have said those things himself, but at least one of his apostles did. Let's see now, whose message and teachings were they supposed to be spreading? I keep forgetting...

Need I quote chapter and verse to you - AGAIN?

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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

Randolfo,

I couldn't agree with you more, Randolfo.
Let me try to clear something up...I do not need others to validate anything that I do. This post was put up during the time when the open discussion about homosexuality was going on. My only desire is that those who openly discriminate- to the point of telling others how "wrong" they are for loving one of the same sex..and how they are going to hell because of it- could open their hearts to what Jesus says. I have had friends who have been attacked by some christians with such attitudes. It was harsh, judgemental, and not loving in anyway at all. My problem is with the spreading of hate and the lies that homosexuals cannot be christians and how God does not approve or accept them because of it.

Below is an awesome site that I have discovered just today. It is a bit long, but very informative.
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Stonewall/8944/dave.htm

Sincerely,
Flash

 

Hello all ~
A twist on the original question. In place of "homosexuals", let us substitute "the religious"
"Do the religious need to be healed of their faith"?

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