Is free will really more important than being good?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by daktaklakpak, Jun 20, 2003.

  1. daktaklakpak God is irrelevant! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    710
    For example:
    If you are to build a car assembly line, do you want you robot arms to always pick the right car parts or you want them to pick what ever they want?

    And what do you do when your assembly line builds a pile of junk instead a new car? Do you blame the programmer to let the robot to pick freely? Or you blame the robot arms themselves?

    Do you want to be a person that always do good never even know evil?

    Or you want to be free will and hoping that you only fantasying evil but never act on it?

    Is the ability to choose evil really that import to let you have free will?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. okinrus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,669
    Do you want to be a person that always do good never even know evil?
    Yes

    Or you want to be free will and hoping that you only fantasying evil but never act on it?
    No

    Is the ability to choose evil really that import to let you have free will?
    Yes. True Love requires free will. Hopefully the choice to love God will be final so thatt we shall only do good.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. daktaklakpak God is irrelevant! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    710
    What's the difference between choose good by free will and act good by no free will? Do you really need to get a taste of evil in order to prove you have true love?

    Why not god exclude evil from all the free will choices? The whole point to experience evil is to prevent it from happen again. If the goal is to make evil never happen, why not just remove it from the beginning? Do man really need to suffer in order to prove true love?

    What's so bad about a free will system without evil anyway? Why having the choices of good and neutral are not enough for you? Why do you need the ability to choose evil to make you feel perfect?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. okinrus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,669
    You do not have to taste evil. What I mean is that love requires freewill. A husband cannot force a wife to be good to him. While the wife would be good to him, the wife would not love him.

    Choosing evil is not the problem. It is that all creation must have a choose whether to love God or not. There will be a time when the choice is final.What's so bad about a free will system without evil anyway?

    There can be no neutral since all good is done by choosing God.
     
  8. daktaklakpak God is irrelevant! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    710
    Well, the wife could be good to him by free well, but she might still not love him. There are plenty of cases of one loves another but his love is actually hurting her. In order to stop her suffering, he must stop loving her. A prime example would be A and B both love C, but C only loves A, so B's love is actually hurting A and C.

    Do you think a choice under free will should be pressure free?

    Do you think a choice under pressure is really free will?

    Do you think hell is a pressure to anyone not choosing god?
     
  9. okinrus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,669
    God loves both A, B, and C since he is the alpha and the omega.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    <i>Do you think a choice under free will should be pressure free? </i> Probably. But applying some presure so that the person will be forced to see if they truely Love God is OK.

    <i> Do you think a choice under pressure is really free will? </i>
    Yes.

    <i>Do you think hell is a pressure to anyone not choosing god?</i> No. Hell is only a place without God. God is love, hope and joy and without him we can do nothing. God is only telling us the consequences of not loving him.
     
  10. daktaklakpak God is irrelevant! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    710
    So if a man under gun point and gives up his wallet, is it a willingly give up or unwillingly give up?

    If a man choose god because of hell, does he choose willingly or unwillingly?

    And how many church goers todays are this kind of person?
     
  11. okinrus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,669
    Well you've probably seen fight club. Fear can lead us to learn more about God and make a more well informed decision.
    Hell is just one of the consequences of not choosing God. It's a bit different then puting a man at gun point. If someone has not chosen God then that one has chosen hell. He has chosen to be without God.
     
  12. Myriad360 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    98
    Hmm, yeah, like what was said before, you don't have free will if you have to end up believing in one thing. If you had true pure will, you could end up liking every belief in life, but in the end not really deciding on any one.

    Reply to Questions
    Q And what do you do when your assembly line builds a pile of junk instead a new car? Do you blame the programmer to let the robot to pick freely? Or you blame the robot arms themselves?

    A Umm, yeah, you blame the programmer. Machines run off pure logic, so it takes advanced logicists (technicians) to make sure they run properly. If you are comparing humans to mindless robots, I would have to agree with you on a large part. But I believe it is the lack of free will cause by religion that causes this, opposite of what you think apparently (could you repost exactly what your logic was again?).

    Q
    Do you want to be a person that always do good never even know evil?

    A No, there is no good without evil. There is no heaven without hell, happiness without lonliness, or feeling in life without sensing all these things.

    Q Or you want to be free will and hoping that you only fantasying evil but never act on it?

    A Can I act on it? Too many things that cause a lot of pleasure and no harm to anything (sex) are labled evil. Free will, free will.

    Q Is the ability to choose evil really that import to let you have free will?

    A I don't think religion is the answere. Religious people still do evil things. Religious cultures are the only ones going on crusades simplely to kill for their God. Christianity has done it as much as any other. Chances are there will be so many religions for so long, we need to learn how to coincide. One world religion is pretty unlikely, sorry to burst your bubble.
     
  13. Quigly ......................... ..... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    901
    Can a sinner choose God? or does God choose to pour out mercy on whom he will have mercy and those are the ones that choose God?
     
  14. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,348
    Evil is not necessary for free will.

    What is the difference (regarding free will) between choosing between good and good and choosing between good and evil?
    It's not like God gave us absolute freedom to do anything imaginable. So why not simply not create evil? Then good would be the only possibility.

    ~Raithere
     
  15. Myriad360 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    98
    I just thought of something

    Why would you need a religion to help you determine good and evil to rule your free will? Are you saying that 'if' God didn't exist, then you would probably kill people if you felt like it? What does that tell you about yourself? I feel like as humans, we have to base our sense of right or wrong on what we personally believe, not on what others tell us, or you could end up with things like the Holocaust. (And the people running it weren't athiests, either.)
     
  16. DJSupreme23 neocortex activated Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    387
    IMO, free will as well as the notion of "good" and "evil" denotes the possibility of choice.

    If i am not free to choose my own actions, you cannot claim that i am evil if I do bad things.

    Conversely, being "good" is nonsensical, if it is not out of free will.

    Free will is not only more important than "good or "evil" - it is a necessary precursor to such actions.
     
  17. daktaklakpak God is irrelevant! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    710
    Religion tends to use free will to justify the existance of evil, which I disagree, and thus started this thread.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  18. Myriad360 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    98
    ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

    I agree man, I was unsure with the begining of this post if you were biased. I am not, I feel I have represented the anit-religion standpoint at least a little to balance things out.
     
  19. otheadp Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,853
    "good" and "bad" are terms subjected to social norms. there's no universal "good" or "bad".

    therefore, i am for social norms. otherwise there's chaos.
    on the other hand, social norms have cons too.

    it's hard to choose.
     
  20. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,036
    I think we need free will to be able to make the choice of doing "good". If we had no free will, life in itself would be pointless, then we would be like robots in a factory. Maybe we are in a larger perspective anyway, since we are designed to be what we are, so we only have a limited amount of free will as humans, as much as needed to keep us interested.


     

Share This Page