The powers of God!!!

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Lou Gentile, Apr 22, 2000.

  1. Lou Gentile Registered Member

    Messages:
    3
    Before I say anything else, I do want to say this: How many times have we humans been wrong? How many times have we made mistakes? How many times have we gone insane and did something that normally we wouldn't do? How many times have we miscalculated our own strength or our own ability and came out on the wrong end of what we were aiming for? The answer is infinite. We humans are constantly making wrong decisions and bad choices. We're human. None of us are perfect. In fact, machines, computers, objects we think that we have created on our own are smarter than we are in many cases.

    Now, the question...How many times has the Bible been wrong? If you know anything about the Bible and what it says and what it upholds, then you're answer would all be the same. None! The Bible was written thousands (not millions, the earth hasn't really been here that long) of years ago. Did you know, that the Bible says that the earth is round? That is in the book of Leviticus, the third book. The Bible knew that before anyone else would listen to it, except for Christopher Columbus, and a few others. The Bible also tells us that the life of humans is in the blood, before anyone else would listen to it and belive that "blood-letting" would heal a person.
    If you can find one instance in which the Original 1611 King James Version Bible (not the new ones who change scripture and truth to match the feelings and morals of today's "age") is wrong, then I won't believe it anymore. That's how strongly I feel about the absolute truth and inspired scriptures of the Word of God.

    It's sad really, we believe scientists and "experts" who are wrong again and again and again and again and again but we won't listen to the ancient holy Book which has NEVER been wrong and NEVER will be wrong. Ever. God, the only true God, used mankind to write what He told them to, and there you have it- the Bible. God is the One who wrote the Bible- man only penned it.

    With these thoughts in mind, I will say that the Bible tells us that, in the Garden of Eden, God said that we are to have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. The Bible also tells us that we are made in His image. It also tells us that we are the only beings with a soul that will live in eternity in Heaven or Hell (both real places). It also tells us, in the New Testament, that Christ told his discples that God, the heavenly father provideth for the raven and the dove and the ant, etc. and that, much more, He will provide for his best creation- man, if we will only trust in Him.

    You see, our basis of "speciality" is not based on what we "invent" or what we "accomplish," because The Divine Creator has allowed us to do these things, and if He wanted to, He could allow the termites to create their own National Aeronautics and Space Administration and wood-probing rockets. Everything we do is based upon what He lets us do. We have failed to realize that nowadays. The reason we're so special and over every other being is that we have been given that authority and that place above all Creation. We didn't earn anything, we were given it. God is the one with all the authority in this universe, and if He wanted to start over and let the penguins rule the world, then He could do that, and for the rest of eterntiy we'd be sliding on our bellies in the South Pole over thick ice looking for food and regurgitating it to our young. But no, we are the dominant species of this universe, and, I believe that if there are other lifeforms on other planets, we are above them too, because God said we were. That's all that really matters. If God says something, then no matter how hard we try to make Him look like a liar, the more He's going to make us look like fools. That is true. Look at our society today. If we'd only come back to God, society would be a true state excellence. Instead of sex and money monopolizing politics and the world, we'd have the Almighty God our Father (not our mother) helping us to have a good a world as we can, before He calls us to our eternal home.

    Noone can prove me wrong, hahaha, I monopolize!
     
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  3. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    It is true, the Christian God can never be wrong. This is consistent with anything that is immaterial, invisible, never makes a sound, cannot be perceived by any human senses, and does not interact with the material world in which we exist. The same definitions can be applied to any imaginary entity. In other words anything that does not exist can never be wrong, but also can never contribute anything useful to reality.

    The bible on the other hand does have a number of useful historical facts and philosophical concepts, but the majority appears to be fictional imagery and mythology, especially the New Testament.

    Pleasant dreaming.



    [This message has been edited by Cris (edited April 22, 2000).]
     
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  5. 666 Registered Senior Member

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    378
    Lou Gentile,

    Do you have proof???

    Do you belive everything you read?
    If you read the report that said cigarettes were not addictive or harmfull would you belive it(don't get me wrong I'm a smoker)? Yes it is verry similar. The bible was written by people and so was that report. The only way you can say the bible was never wrong and that the events took place would be if you were there to see if the events ever happened. So try stepping off your high horse and try having a discussion not sermon.

    ------------------
    All I know is what I understand. All I understand is what I know.

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    [This message has been edited by 666 (edited April 23, 2000).]
     
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  7. Lou Gentile Registered Member

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    I don't think I need to explain why you don't believe the Bible. You're more full of it than God or the Bible ever will be. You see, athiest scientists try their best to come up with logical explanations and variations to prove the Bible wrong, but, they can't. If you knew how obsurd some of their reasoning is, you'd see the same way. Scientists suck. They have no clue. All they can study is what they see. They have no evidence for the big bang. No hard evidence for evolution. Nuttin. Of course, all we have is the Bible, but that's enough for us. We have the ability to believe, all they have to go on is hard scientific "fact" which in many cases is not fact. Anyway, the Bible is LITERAL. The flood actually took place and Jonah was swallowed by a whale and spit back up. These are not legends, these are the most hard core facts anyone will see here on this earth. That is said in the Bible too, in the New Testament, although I can't remember exactly off hand where. But I was saying the Bible has triumped victorious over all man's reasoning to date and will continue to do so. Science say things are impossible, but with God all things are possible.

    I am so sick of people retreating to their intellectual powers to try their best to outrun the truth in God's Word. What makes man any more intellegent that the Bible is what I want to know. That carbon test, devised by man, may have flaws. The evolutionary scale- devised by man, HAS flaws. Etcetera etcetera. I could go on and on. The Bible has never been proven wrong and never will, I guarantee it.

    The reference to where the Bible says the earth is round is...okay, I just checked the reference and I was wrong. It is not in Leviticus, but it is in Isaiah. I was confused with another verse in Leviticus that tells us the life of man is in the blood. OK. Disprove that one. Anyway, the reference in a good solid King James Version Bible is Is. 40:200.

    And while I'm on this subject, check this out. Job, a man in the Bible who had no access to a telescope or space shuttle or anything like that wrote in Job 26:7 that the earth is suspended in space and the stars are innumerable (Deut. 1:10) About the time of Galileo, people thought there were about 5,000 stars in the sky, well we win again.


    i win again, hehehe...
     
  8. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Lou,

    You clearly believe that what the bible says is true and it sounds like you think we should believe it as well. So why are you so convinced of its truth? And what evidence can you show us that could convince us? You must realize that simply making assertions won’t be sufficient.

    So let’s hear your reasoning.
     
  9. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

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    229
    Lou -

    Nice circular arguement. Would you mind explaining why your god creates people who are incapable of believing in him? Or is that included in the catch-all, "just 'cause" answer?

    Also, if you assert that mankind has been wrong over and over, what enormous arrogance possesses you to think that, of uncounted billions, YOU have it exactly right?

    Regards,
    FyreStar
     
  10. 666 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Lou Gentile,

    I may have come off a bit harsh, but I'm trying to chalange you to think. Not turn and run to a warm fuzzy blanket like a child. It is clear by your last post that you whish to "belive" so badly that you put blinders on and can not think clearly.
    First I would like state that I started off in life a full blown beliver. I did not attempt to use my intellectual powers to out run or prove wrong. I simply out grew the belief, such as a child out grows santa claus. This is the warm fuzzy child's blanket I am talking about. You make such general statments. What probably happened with the above quote and the rest of your post concerning science, is that you heard a few people make out landish remarks, but your beleif in god is so frail that you that you stoped thinking and started reacting as a fearfull child. Once again I may be harsh, but I chalange you to think not to react. After all without our intellectual power we would not be able to have these computers in which we comunicate. So tell me how bad does science and my beliefs "suck" ? That was your word you chose right? Before you go off telling other people how there beliefs suck try looking at your beliefs from thier point of view. You just might see how childish they look from my end. I accualy feel sorry for you! There must be some serious pain or fear you are running from.

    Ok now for the bible being 100% correct. If you go with this belief please tell me how you can feel comfortable believing in a god who has murder as demostraited below. Now rember this is not a direct quoting. It is way to long to quote word for word, and yes it comes from the King James Version.
    One last little bite.
    King James Version
    That little word version can mean so much!!


    [This message has been edited by 666 (edited April 23, 2000).]
     
  11. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,478
    And now, a monkey who needs no introduction, flies out of my ass and announces...

    "HEEEEEEEEEERE'S 666!!!"
     
  12. samus Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    52
    Lou,

    i have to tell you i find it VERY hard to respond to you on an intellectual level. you still have yet to provide any evidense or even original arguement for your claims. yet for some reason, regardless of your extremely limited knowledge, you come here to this forum system to make the most outrageous claims that have ever been posted. most of what you say is laughable to anyone who understands the basic facts surrounding the subject area. unfortunately for you, many of these people understand a LOT more than that, and you simply won't be able keep up.

    i've decided not to argue with you at the level of disproving the bible. 95% of theologists are athiests, and less than 1% of christians are converted rather than raised christian. most people that study the bible and actually understand it come to the conclusion that it cannot be taken seriously if interpreted as literal fact. however, many people that believe something all their lives are unwilling to give up that belief. what's more, people that believe something without understanding it first don't want to admit to themselves or others that their position is unfounded. most of the time they react with anger in the face of arguements and evidense which they cannot refute with logic. i pity that you do not understand christianity or the bible, and can only hope that sometime many many years from now when you go off to college, you will begin to open your mind to the evidense right in front of you.

    i do, however, have to address your attacks against science. i find it very ironic that you argue against science with a computer and on a message board brought to you by science. or maybe you went to church and prayed that your posting would show up here. i think most of the people here will agree with me that nowadays the trend is more that christians are searching for ways to make the bible consistent with science, rather than science trying to keep up with the bible.

    for some reason you have picked out the 2 most well proven theories in all of history to attack. every year we have to come out with new vaccines because viruses evolve right in front of us. i don't know how you can question something that you watch happen. the entire field of genetics is based on evolution and has brought us many advances. christianity cannot even begin to explain the mere existence of fossils of creatures which are halfway between humans and apes (or dinosaurs, or any fossil at all for that matter). this is not to mention the consistent progression from ape to human throughout time is amazingly acurate with carbon dating.

    i don't know why you even argue against the big bang. it isn't even mutually exclusive with the bible, meaning that they could potentially both be 100% true. however, i do have to wonder what your explanantion is for why all objects in space are heading away from each other in a uniform fashion which we can trace back to one point around 15 billion years ago. you do believe in gravity, don't you lou? if the universe is not expanding, because of gravity it is contracting. and if it had not been expanding rapidly at one point, it already would have collapsed on itself.

    lou, it is absurd to think that noone can prove you wrong, even when you make your own contractions. i find this especially hard to believe after your entire rant about humans always screwing up.

    my last question, lou, is why do you go out of your way to say "our father(not our mother)?" what is that supposed to mean?

    samus

    [This message has been edited by samus (edited April 23, 2000).]
     
  13. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    400
    Samus~

    I think he's making sure to include the Pagans in this argument with that "not our mother" comment. Pagans (such as myself) believe there are two main Dieties, a male God/Father and a female Goddess/Mother.

    Since I'm virtually convinced Lou here is around 13 or so, I'm not going to bother to argue with him until he says something worth arguing about. I couldn't care less about his claims, and if anything, he's just helping make the Christians look like fools. Fortunately, most Christians have their heads on a little straighter and can at least put together a coherent argument. I'm still not convinced, mind you, but at least they have a bit more brains behind their words at least SOME of the time than Lou has demonstrated. I find Lou to be amusing rather than thought-provoking, and almost wonder if he's someone playing a trick by pretending to be such a fundie.

    (MoonCat sitting back with an amused look on her face and a mocha in hand, waiting for the hilarity to continue)
     
  14. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,199
    Lou,

    Don't be put off by these criticisms, try again to state your case but take care to justify each assertion. If you aren't accurate then expect to be crucified.

    Welcome to the real world.

    I have 3 teenage children and if you are as young as we think then I can readily understand your position. Don't be discouraged, but you might need to lose some pride and be prepared to be more humble. You will learn a lot simply by trying to state your case more clearly.

    Have fun whatever.
    Cris
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    Lou--

    I'm sorry you missed a friend of ours. The two of you would have worked well together--much of your ideology is similar, and I'm sure you could have patched each others' gaps.

    I wanted to echo one of your own statements, though:
    That's a very good question. You seem to follow only a single current, though, when you apply this to conclude that people are dumber than sand and plastic. But it's a good question, and while I don't have an answer in the form that "People have been wrong N times throughout history," I might be able to offer a few worthwhile aspects of the problem.

    One of the first things, though, to clarify, is how you read the Bible. Literal? Literal within context? Figurative/mythologically? It's important because the method affects the criteria of correctness.

    For instance: In The Psalms, there is reference to Tartessian ships disappearing over the horizon, destroyed by God's wrath; from a literalist perspective, this is not accurate, for Dr. Barry Fell, formerly of Harvard University, has been able to demonstrate that some of those very ships made it ashore in the American continents.

    I might also mention that the Greeks knew the world was round.

    One other thing I wanted to mention:

    That's a lot of credit to give God, all things considered. Think of it this way: So God has a few options for creation, Plans A, B, and C. Plan A actually looks like what we know as reality. Plan B would put the cockroaches in charge, and Plan C would never have gotten past the dinosaurs. God chooses one plan ... is it because it is the best plan, or is it arbitrary? There is a definitive reason that transcends the fancy of a blind, stumbling god to explain why Humans landed where they did in the food chain. Otherwise, it seems we're suggesting the possibility that God "could have done better". Personally, I don't see this as too much of a psychospiritual pretzel, but the idea has never gone over well in the Christian circles I've associated with.

    And one cheap potshot, 'cuz I need to:
    If we would only come back to God .... Truly, we would have a wonderful world, once the people "coming back to God" finished killing the hell out of everyone else. Consider, please: we won't know we've arrived until we're already there. You can truly achieve fulfillment, theoretically. Practically speaking, though, you simply need to achieve something, and then call it fulfillment. That's the more accepted way of going about God.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
     
  16. Rambler Senior Member Registered Senior Member

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    509
    ........, we'd have the Almighty God our Father (not our mother),

    In case anyone else is wondering I believe this is a form of christain witt. A comical way to justify sexism in the church, or homophobia...depending on the bigotry at hand.

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    I had a catholic "father" not "mother" in high school who was fond of saying that very line.

    BTW I read somewhere that the first translation of the bible from Greek to english was responsible for a VERY HUGE mistake in the modern christain doctrin. I think the greek word used to describe Mary (the holy MOTHER)

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    had a duality to its meaning. It could have been taken to mean young and pure of heart OR virgin. Perhaps there was NO imaculate conception, but then again Lou assures us the bible is 100% correct hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess I'll just have to get used to being wrong, wrong, wrong......
     
  17. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    I seems like Christians have had 2000 years to try to convince the rest of the world to change. They seem to have failed quite miserably. I think it is time we chose a more appropriate and realistic system that stands a better chance of bringing peace and love to the world.
     
  18. pashley Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    169
    Because if didn't have the choice to believe or not believe, deny or not deny, we would only be automatons, would we not?

    God gave us the choice, because without the choice, the love for Him would not be as valuable, as true, as free choice.

    Would you rather have a girlfriend that loves you freely, or one that must, under duress or cohersion?

    ------------------
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
    -Edmund Burke
     
  19. pashley Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    169
    666 said:
    666, you say "murder", but that is misleading. Murder connotes undue harm done to a person.

    You are referring to is retribution in the passage you cite. Your point is "What kind of God kills people?" Good question.

    God is a loving God, but a just God.

    Heard that before, huh?

    Think of it another way; what kind of God would he be if he did not parcel out deserved punishment?

    I think a simple example would be the parent and the spoiled child. If God did not punish, as the parent did not punish, what becomes of the child? The child will grow up self-centered, have no accountability, and will likely have contempt for his fellow man. I submit the child that is punsished grows up better adjusted, with no sociopathic behavior. Which child will grow spiritually more? The self-centered, or the one that can interact and grow thru interaction with others? Which life is the better lived?

    Likewise, I believe God is the same.
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    Pashley--

    Can I take a stab here?

    This relies on human interpretations. Ask any two sides of a war. One side sees the harm as justified, the other doesn't; generally speaking, that is. We might think of Germany as the center of the Nazi evil during WWII, but to ask any of the few who witnessed and survived the Dresden firestorm, that moment of war might have been a little bit excessive.

    In the case of war, I offer this merely as an example.

    When humans execute a standard of God, it is still a human interpretation; this is the tragedy of various atrocities committed in the name of God, that we would rather believe our own subjective interpretations.

    This idea has the potential to lead to a kind of tyranny. Historically, it has. The idea that God is not responsible (directly) for the actions his commands inspire is a loose one that has allowed the worst sides of faith to dominate the activity of the greater church. It is in the name of God's loving justice that so many bad things have been visited upon humanity by His church.

    And so we come to this, which I think is generally a fair idea, except ....

    Quite simply, I think this kind of idea presupposes a number of things, not the least of which is the Nature of God, but also the necessity of crime and punishment. Furthermore, the paragraphs which follow, which I believe to be in support of your assertion, carries a number of assumptions which leave us working in base images of the absolute best and worst of an idea. What if the parent is unjust? What if God is unjust? And the better-lived life will be determined A) long after the deaths of the individuals compared, and B) according to extant subjective criteria. After all, I've known people who believed themselves Christian ... and might actually have been if, say, he hadn't been a child molester. These things happen to all sorts of people, and while faith often gives people a tool to work with, it can also set incredibly restrictive boundaries which one would be forced to work within.

    I might also point to a couple of SBC churches I've known of in my day which were, in the 1990's, forcing their women to wear dresses at all times, limited the manner in which women could socialize in a misogynist manner, and whose congregations were well-known for "spanking" their kids into psychiatric wrecks.

    For instance, if I say that every single kid I knew in junior high and high school was seriously screwed up by their religion, I would not be exaggerating. But the problems of these kids were only partly tied to the religion. Seriously, 100% of the Christian kids I knew in junior high (public) and high school (Catholic) were messed up. I once counseled a 16 year-old who was seriously emotionally distressed because she wouldn't be a virgin on her wedding night. Not bad, except that of all the behavior I've witnessed from women raped by their fathers, the stigma of virginity and purity in the eyes of God seems to weigh more heavily than the fact that her father assaulted her. I've never understood that, but after awhile you learn to let it be that way. The point I'm after is that you can claim to bring the child up in the ways of God, but only God knows what those ways are. The handbook, as such, is apparently subjective enough that two "proper" Christians can behave exactly opposite, and both are still fulfilling God's will.

    Thus it would seem that regardless of what we teach children, they will make their own choices. If we school them in the ways of Christ, they can still screw it up hugely and cost a lot of innocent people unnecessary tolls. I would assert no difference for any philosophy.

    But "the life better lived" speaks nothing of the God, and much of the parents, the teachers, and the child/person themself.

    But your assertion that a child might be "self-centered, have no accountability, and ... have contempt for his fellow man" is true for the atheist inasmuch as it is for the Christian, Muslim, Wiccan, or otherwise.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

    [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited May 02, 2000).]
     
  21. Corp.Hudson Registered Senior Member

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    419
    Actually, the bible is not thousands of years old. It was not canonized for the final time until about 400 B.C.E. People started recording it approximately 2500years ago, in 500C.E.
     
  22. Infinity Registered Senior Member

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