Intolerance? Washington state legislators walk out on Muslim prayer

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tiassa, Mar 5, 2003.

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How inappropriate was the walkout?

  1. They have the right. End of story.

    9 vote(s)
    36.0%
  2. Disrespectful, to say the least.

    9 vote(s)
    36.0%
  3. Inappropriate? Hey, a Muslim cleric praying in a state capitol is inappropriate!

    1 vote(s)
    4.0%
  4. Further evidence that religion has no place in government.

    5 vote(s)
    20.0%
  5. Other (____)

    1 vote(s)
    4.0%
  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,882
    Legislators walk out during prayer by Muslim cleric (KING 5)
    This is part of what bothers me about religion and government. Poppy Bush, for instance, has said that atheists shouldn't be allowed to be citizens of the US. Dubya has said that he thinks Wiccans should be excluded from his faith-based initiatives. And here we have ... well? Sure, I think these legislators are just rude, but at least Condotta kept his comments short and vague, and therefore fair.

    McMahon, however, seems to characterize the problem of religious bigotry. Imam Joban, of course, gets the good sound bite and comes out looking pretty good.

    But this is pretty much why religion should be kept out of government.

    Raise a toast to March 10 ....

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  3. jps Valued Senior Member

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    I think they should be forced to resign over this, but then again i think they all should resign('cept for maybe bernie).

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  5. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Considering that the attendance isn't mandatory they have the right to walk out on the prayer if the don't agree with it. That being said, the fact that the walked out because it was a Muslim prayer is just direspectful and ignorant.

    Bush, for instance, has said that atheists shouldn't be allowed to be citizens of the US. Dubya has said that he thinks Wiccans should be excluded from his faith-based initiatives.

    Do you have a link/news article for this? It sounds lie something he would say but I haven't heard that he actually did. Exclusion based on religious 'popularity' is the reason I was against the faith based initiative before.
     
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  7. Bridge Registered Senior Member

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    Other

    I'm always the odd man out.

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    My reason. Can you imagine Billy Graham giving an invocation to the Saudi Council of Ulama? (not that it would make any difference since it's a pure monarchy).
     
  8. CounslerCoffee Registered Senior Member

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    4,997
    They have that right. End of story.

    They do have the right. One time at my school (In KY - Part of the bible belt) a bunch of my atheist friends got up and walked out of the gym because a preacher insisted on praying, which was completely out of line because the Principle asked him not to. Anyway, they (the atheists) had the right to walk out of the gym and say "That is total bull crude." Just like how those people can walk out because they don't agree with Muslim religion.

    As for Bush saying that atheists shouldn't be allowed to be citizens, that's his opinion. Just because he's the Prez doesn't mean that he has to be PC all the time. Hell! Bill Clinton had that whole sex scandal!

    I dont think that Bush would ever go as far as trying to get Atheists kicked out of America... He knows he would win, and he knows it wrong and goes against everything this country was founded on.
     
  9. spacemanspiff czar of things Registered Senior Member

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    823
    yeah, they do have the right to be completly ignorant. unfortunatly.

    religion in the US government has lead to the gov basicly endorsing a certain brand(conservative Christian). there's almost a religion ranking. the more popular your religion the more legit it is. not surprising some fringe beleif system(wiccan) is considered subpar by the gov.

    you could almost handicap a political race based on it. Minus points for being jewish or catholic. and outright disqualification for being atheist.(or muslim these days).

    i bet most people who imagine religion in gov as a good thing imagine it with their religion.


    *edit
    " Just like how those people can walk out because they don't agree with Muslim religion. "

    do you really think they know much about Islam besides thinking that they are all anti-american terrorist?
     
  10. man_of_jade Psychic person Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    436
    Irregardless of whether or not they agreed with it or not, they shouldnt have walked out. If they didnt want to be there, then they shouldnt have come in the first place, rather than walk out rudely in the middle of a ceremony.
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,882
    Links and Erratum

    Bush on atheists (Cyberdespot)
    Google search "george bush atheists citizens"
    George Bush on Wicca, Senators on Wicca and Military (Positive Atheism)
    President Bush and Wicca

    So it seems I'm in error.

    Specifically, it is a Republican Senator who said that Wiccans probably wouldn't get funding in Bush's new faith-based programs. While it broadens the scope of Republican hostility to non-Christians, I do owe Bush an apology. All he said is that Wicca is not a religion and the military should rethink allowing Wiccans to practice their religion.

    Silly me.

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    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  12. Aldah Registered Senior Member

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    meh... definitively separate cults from religions. Then you may have a point worth arguing over. Otherwise it's just dubya voicing an opinion on something rather relative... hopefully no one will take him seriously.

    However, the elder's statement about atheists absolutely shocks me. That is absurd, shameful, and goes against the ideals of religious tolerance. besides, he was a president... he should be smart enough to know that atheism is just as much as a religion as any other.

    And I think those representatives had the right to do what they did, but I think it is embarrassing and wrong that they did so.
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Um ... Blackstone

    Um ... Blackstone, while I agree that prayer sessions at the Capitol are generally inappropriate, why focus on muslims and "their religious shit"?
    Maybe if Muslims should keep their religious shit out of people's lives, a nondenominational organization appointed by the legislators themselves should not have picked Joban.

    Parhaps, Blackstone, when you reconsider the facts of the case, you might wish to extend an apology to Muslims?

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  14. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Links and Erratum

    Originally posted by tiassa
    So it seems I'm in error.
    No biggy

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    Specifically, it is a Republican Senator who said that Wiccans probably wouldn't get funding in Bush's new faith-based programs.

    This is another problem with the initiative, in that someone will be deciding the difference between what constitutes a 'real' religion. I'm sure we can all think of groups that we don't want our tax money going to, but I'm also sure we wouldn't all agree which groups these are.

    I'm sorry if I'm off topic... please continue

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  15. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    You know, Counsler, something similar once happened to me - though I couldn't walk out. When I was 12 and 13 I attended a hockey training camp with Toronto's St. Michael's Majors. The team is an OHL (Ontario Hockey League - for you yanks that's like college football, I guess) team, and it's summer training camp runs (like the team) out of St. Mike's College - a catholic school. So for two summers I had to pretend to be Catholic. We had classes (well, "leadership and team classes") with a priest. It was very odd.

    Only, like I said, I couldn't exactly walk out. It was one of the better training schools in the area and my dad use to play with the guy who (at the time) coached the Mike's, so I got a reduced fare.
     
  16. odin Registered Senior Member

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    1,098
    If we should respect peoples rights to practice religion,they should respect the rights of individuals not to have anything to do with it!
    After all its just a power base to control people,proof of this is when they try to covert or make people belive,so that there power base becomes larger!
    If there is a god & it wants more followers then why does it not prove that it exists?
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,882
    Blackstone: What are you reading, or what are you smoking?

    Blackstone

    The sheer disrespect and dishonesty you show is disheartening. As you will see, there are a number of errors about your post which I point out. I consider your absolutely fictitious assertions of fact downright disturbing.
    As you wish, but since you quoted it, I'll just remind you of it instead of implying that you're not reading what I wrote:

    - while I agree that prayer sessions at the Capitol are generally inappropriate, why focus on muslims and "their religious shit"?

    Now, this specific question I derived from your post:

    - and what muslims specefically will never learn is to Seperate religion from public life anf keep thier religon shit to themselves in private and in its appropiate Places(mosques), and Stop this annoying exhibiting and shoving thier religion up others !

    I find it odd that you single out Muslims for this behavior, regardless of the topic. Its consistency among evangelical religions pretty much states the case:

    - and what muslims specifically will never learn ....

    Muslims specifically?

    - and Stop this annoying exhibiting and shoving thier religion up others

    As I pointed out, you might wish to reconsider the facts of the case; as I cited previously--
    Now then, where is it that you get this idea of shoving? While I might on any other day agree with you about any number of evangelical religions, the facts of this case are that:

    (A) The legislators choose to hold this prayer session
    (B) The legislators choose to allow the AMTC to select the clergy
    (C) The AMTC selected Imam Joban

    Now, if a muslim Imam leading the prayer is inappropriate, then having the prayer at all is inappropriate. I reiterate again: while I agree that prayer sessions at the Capitol are generally inappropriate, why focus on muslims and "their religious shit"?
    How so?

    I cite that very article:
    - Invocation (Dictionary.com)
    Is there any part of Imam Joban's role at the Legislature that is unclear?
    That's hardly a useful response. If you reconsider the facts of the case in light of your angry focus on Muslims, I think you'll find that you might very well wish to extend an apology to Muslims.
    Well, that's up to you. But I think it very low to cast aspersions on Muslims simply because you either do not understand the facts of the case, or else you simply refuse to give Muslims the dignity of your honest consideration.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  18. heflores Banned Banned

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    I agree with Tiassa,

    Blackstone is overly prejudice. It's like the demons in his head loves to feed off the excitement he gets from bashing Islam and Muslims.
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Bridge ... Persol

    Bridge
    I agree it would be hilarious. We ought to send Falwell.

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    But your words give me occasion to reflect on a curious theological twist. To Imam Joban, it's all one and the same. There is One God, and Muhammed is His prophet, but we must also remember that Jesus holds certain special ground in the tradition. It is only the Christians who really make a hard distinction between one deity and the other.

    It's ironic, is all.

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    Persol

    I would have a hard time disqualifying it as off-topic. After all, one of the poll options is Further evidence that religion has no place in government. And since that happens to be exactly my sentiment, I find any concerns about religion and government valid and on-topic. But that's just me. I did, I suppose, set it up so we can argue about the incident in the Legislature.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  20. odin Registered Senior Member

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    - Invocation (Dictionary.com)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Hey the mans an Egyptian & your quoting the dictionary at him.
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Well ...

    Well ... er ... :bugeye:

    Then hopefully I've cleared up his misperception of the article.

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    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Question of respect

    For any who would like to discuss the notion of "they have the right, end of story":

    - I agree that "they have the right". But I don't think it's the end of the story.

    I'm curious because it seems a matter of respect. If either one of them had said, "I'm an atheist, I don't care about any of the prayer sessions," that would have settled it. Just because someone has the right does not make it a good idea, as I would hope the self-centered 1990s would have shown. But being disinterested just because it's not "your side" wishing the best seems disrespectful, to say the least, and making it an issue of patriotism, as one did, seems almost absurdly disrespectful.

    Yet ... they have the right to be disrespectful. Does the story end there? Or do the people, in electing their public officials, have necessity to consider that their elected official is willing to be disrespectful based on religious and cultural standards?

    Hell, the President had a right to get a blowjob from a consenting adult, but that certainly wasn't the end of the story.

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    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  23. I would too, I will not bow down to false gods. Tiassa, if you were elected to the Wash. State Senate, & some preacher started to pray or bless you, what would you do? Would you walk out, yell, what?

    How do the two relate in this example? Baby Bush doesn't understand many things, if you read the 1st Amendment, it says; freedom of ( for, from) religion. Bad Bush!! Go to your room!!!

    But what would wiccans want to do? Adopt babies? Plant trees? Clean the inner cities? What?
    I would only exclude wiccans & atheists from working in Christian religious organizations, like the Salvation Army or Catholic Charities.


    Why would that be fair? He could still be anti-muslim, just not showing it out in public? Trent Lott would still be Senate Majority leader if he kept his mouth shut.

    Why shouldn't he speak his mind or vote with his feet? (if McM were anti-war & walked out on Rummy, would you applaud him?) Can't politicians speak there mind? Even if wrong?

    Yeh right! Anyone who disagrees with islam is ignorant! Tiassa, try debating that imam, see how ignorant he considers you. BTW, if this was a muslim country, you would be in deep toast if the local imams or thought police came after you.

    I agree, but not for your reasons, I don't want to have someone bless me or pray for me, that worships false gods or ideas, (thanks anyway, Tiassa)
     

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