"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen Roberts What would lead a fully mature individual who had been living in a void without information regarding our own world, and who came into our own world, to believe in a God or any religion? So long as he didn't succumb to the fallacies of those who would say there is any value in faith, and understood the concepts of critical thinking, what observations could he make that would lead him to such an idea as the existence of a diety, or the validity of faith? I submit that there are none. If you accept that we come into this world with knowledge of nothing at all, not even a God, then you must admit that the default view of the world must be that of an atheist. Unfortunately a young child hasn't the tightest grasp on logic or critical thinking, though if he did, what then would lead him to have faith in anything, or conclude that there is a God(s). If atheism is the default view of the world, which can be kept through simple lack of evidence, then it becomes apparent that Atheism doesn't even need to be defended or supported as a position (Which is not to say that it should not be when attacked, or that it can not be), the burden of proof then lies with the religious who claim to have information which goes against that which could otherwise be clearly seen? The answer in most cases that to support religion one doesn't need information, that faith is supposed to fill that void. What is faith, though? Nothing more than belief without information. How can one draw a conclusion without knowing anything, though? What can you offer me in support of your belief in a God, or any other mystic ideal? I'm an open minded individual, and like to keep my view of the world dynamic, though only so long as a new idea presented can be supported and logically proven. What can you offer me to make me believe?
Mmm. Sometimes I wonder how an individual who can't find their way around main street is convinced they know some eternal truth.
Leaving aside the question as to what 'to come objectively into this world' might mean, did you not just ask: What would cause someone to succumb to theism so long as he did not succumb to theism? Nice quote, by the way - one of my favorites. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I'm not sure what you mean, Tyler. As for that sentence you pointed out, ConsequentAtheist, I've got no excuse, really, that word just doesn't belong there, I took it out. Sorry, I'm just a bit dazed right now, heh, I've been looking at the computer screen for a few hours. I've got a long break between classes right now, and sitting in the computer commons is just about all I've got at the moment.
It just seems odd that people who seem to know so little about everything around them feel secure in knowing what, to many, is the biggest and most important question in the universe. It's like if someone told you they learnt calculus before multiplication.
You must understand, though that to an Atheist, there is no question to begin with, it really isn't such a big deal. It's quite akin to simply dismissing the existance of unicorns and leprechauns. The eveidence for them, and for God are roughly equil.
Uh, I'm an atheist. I was speaking from that point of view. It amazes me that people are so insist that they know a god exists, which god, and what he feels, when.... Yeesh, I didn't think I'd have to explain this so many times!
The cosmos has no question-free zone. That's really sad. Of course there's a "question to begin with", and more than enough cause for wonder and mystery and delight. There's symply no reason to accept God(s) as a surrogate for the answers.
The natural state I shall give your point some consideration while changing the next diaper. Not to imply that you're FoS or anything. Rather, as I picture my daughter, not quite three months old, in her natural state as an atheist, I will remind myself that her natural state is also unable to feed herself, communicate consistently with others, or, as the moment will have it, avoid shPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!tting on herself. Critical thinking, like bowel control, is acquired behavior. It is not inherent. And that's the thing--even if you burn all the myths, bury all the ghost stories, and throw the television set out the window, can you still stop a child from fearing the shadows? Superstition is a natural part of human thought, as unfortunate as it might seem. Can you really stop a baseball fan from holding their breath on the two and two? :m:, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Natural ..... The state of initial endowment. e.g.--"God finds you naked and he leaves you dying. What happens in between is up to you." (Robyn Hitchcock) The proposal being that the "default" or "natural" perspective of a human born is atheist. This is true. It is also those things I mentioned above: dependent, incommunicado, and poopy. Thus, the state in which we arrive on Earth without any alteration is atheist, incapable, and full of shPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!t. :m:, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
It's all psychological. How do you convince someone your truth if their idea of truth was instilled in them from their parents at the earliest stage of learning.
Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray ... Having asserted would not the acquisition of the "full of asPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!t" condition be roughly concurrent with one's first exposure to religion? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I could say the same for atheism. Get an afterlife ConsequentPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Initial states In itself, this is not a valid argument. We might note that the initial state of Theistic belief would be Atheist (lacking a belief in God) but this really tells us no more than noting that the initial state does not have a concept of color, believe in the concept of jinxing one's self, or believe in justice and freedom for all. That we are born without the concept of something does not have any bearing on the veracity of the concept. As to the question of evidence, I agree. It's not necessary that it is the default view. The weak atheist position does not make an assertion as to the actual existence of God but only as to one's belief in the existence of God. There is no assertion that needs to be defended and the belief is easily argued; "I see no evidence or reason that warrants such a belief." However, the strong atheist position does need to be defended. Personally, I find that it cannot be supported as a universal declaration but must be conditional. ~Raithere
ConsequentAtheist Well, ConsequentAtheist, the problem with the assertion that "atheism is the natural state" is that it overlooks individual human development. My child wasn't thinking at birth, merely living. Perhaps another apt metaphor, there. It's just that a couple of people have made this assertion before and in prior cases, as with Mystech, it's a fair consideration as long as we stop to think what else that condition involves. When we look at the process dynamically, beyond instinct and the first stages of Pavlovian conditioning, and seek the beginnings of higher thought the ineffable, the mysterious, and the initial associations and comparisons drawn from a growing consciousness pretty much demand subjective functionality before objective thought can be compartmentalized, narrowed, proscribed, and directed. As painters, musicians, dancers, writers, actors, &c. have shown, the objective is not necessarily an evolution above and beyond the subjective. A purely objective perspective escapes human capability right now. The prevailing trend I see is that the two ideas, like so many dualisms, are interdependent. As the atheistic anti-identification demonstrates, after one ignores God for subjectivity, subjective criteria rule the day. It's all a matter of where one draws the line or puts their foot down. Ever see the first shPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! out of a baby, CA? Trust me--you're born full of shPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!t. It's green and black. :m:, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
