God is love?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Persol, Feb 23, 2003.

  1. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    It has been claimed here that the only possible way to interpret the bible is to believe that 'god is love'. What does this actually mean?

    How is killing all life on the face of the earth love?
    How is Lot giving his daughters to be raped love?
    How is animal sacrifice for god = love?
    How is killing the firstborn child love?
    How is a plague love?
    How is drowning an army love?
    How is destroying people who do not believe in god = love? Ex 22:20
    How is killing someone for breaking Sabath love? Ex 31:14
    How is killing Korah for arguing with Moses love?
    How is killing all of the Midianites, including the children, excluding the virgins... love?
    How does killing for worship of the wrong god =love? Deut 6:15
    How is commanding people to stone others who don't believe you love?
    How is ording the sons of Levi to kill = love?
    How is god supporting the act of Phinehas killing a woman with a spear love?
    How is god letting Judah kill = love?
    How is killing people because the pronounce "shibboleth" wrong = love?
    How does god sending Isrealites to their death love?
    How does god's killing of the other side (Benjamites) equal love? (once again kill all but virgins)
    How is killing people who look into the ark love?
    How is killing 70000 others for the 'sin' of David equal to love?
    How is killing the Syrians love?

    etc... etc... etc...

    It is much more acurate to say "God is indecisive"
    Hell, he doesn't even rememebr the order in which he created the universe... but I guess that's just a 'small' detail.
     
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  3. Bridge Registered Senior Member

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    Hmmm

    Mental battles will always rage over these issues. I know I have had my share.

    I wonder if God had done away all these things you've cited if any of us would even be here to debate it.

    Wouldn't God have to get rid of all us to prevent evil?

    Presupposing you believe in God (you either do believe, you don't believe, or you sit on the fence, if you don't believe then the whole question is just a moot point) the bigger question is are we in a position to judge God as evil?

    A judgment presupposes a standard of right and wrong, and my immediate question is where can such a thing come from if not from God?
     
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  5. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Hmmm

    That is part of my issue... I don't claim that god is evil... I don't claim that god is good... I don't claim to know that he exists or doesn't exist. My problem is that people state that we can't understand the reason god does somethings, but then they say something like 'God is Love'. How do you possibly say that if you don't know why he performs his actions?

    Then they say that the bible is the word of god, and can therefore be used in arguement. Yet it contains multiple contradictions and situations where god himself lies. If a book 'by' god demonstrates that he lies, why believe the rest of it?

    SIDENOTE:
    I have no problem with someone having faith that 'god is love'. However you can not prove this using the bible as it opposes the view at many turns. People seem to be stuck on the koran advising violence, but the bible does the same thing. It just happens that those sections are currently ignored.
     
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  7. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    bridge,

    You sound like a reasonable person. Would you reason that murdering someone is a bad thing? If yes then did you reach that conclusion through supernatural instruction or your own logical thoughts?

    I will assume the latter, unless of course you can show evidence of the former. But in which case why would a god be necessary if we can logically determine our own moral standards?
     
  8. man_of_jade Psychic person Registered Senior Member

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    436
    Give an example of each, than i will gladly dispute this. All you say is that he did this things, but not all of us read the bible cover to cover hehe
     
  9. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    So people support they're belief in god using a book that they haven't fully read?
     
  10. man_of_jade Psychic person Registered Senior Member

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    436
    Please stop trying to discredit me. Have YOU read the entire bible, Front to back? I could say that since you havent said that you have, therefore all your arguements are void, but that doesnt make it true. What are the specific stories behind each of these reasons you stated? I will reply to the ones that i remember the story behind...
    Killing all life on the face of the earth... You mean the great flood and noahs ark story? Apparently the reason behind that was everybody except Noah and his family were evil... While i dont agree that this was the best solution, thats what happened. The description given was that the world was basically in a dark age, and it wasnt going to improve anytime soon.
    Drowning an army... If you are reffering to when moses and company was being pursued thorugh the red sea, read it correctly. That was not god. MOSES parted the sea to escape genocide, and closed it to escape death, murder, and other unpleasant things. GOD did not do this, as you claim.
    The firstborn child and the other plagues... Imagine if your entire family except your dad were slaves. Dirt was treated better, and finally the person in charge promised to set you free. NOT. They decide to keep you as slaves. Do you think your dad would want to help you out in this position? He sent the plagues so he could save his people, not so he could torture some egyptians for the fun of it. He was trying to convince the egytians that they should keep their promise, that they should release his people.
    Could you please supply a link or text for the rest of your examples? I dont have access to a copy of the bible handy, and cannot research the rest of these examples.
     
  11. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Originally posted by man_of_jade
    Please stop trying to discredit me. Have YOU read the entire bible, Front to back?
    Actually yes, I have...

    I could say that since you havent said that you have, therefore all your arguements are void, but that doesnt make it true. What are the specific stories behind each of these reasons you stated? I will reply to the ones that i remember the story behind...

    I wasn't trying to discredit you... but the idea of someone basing their life on what others tell them about a book which they haven't fully read.

    Killing all life on the face of the earth... You mean the great flood and noahs ark story? Apparently the reason behind that was everybody except Noah and his family were evil... While i dont agree that this was the best solution, thats what happened. The description given was that the world was basically in a dark age, and it wasnt going to improve anytime soon.

    So all the animals and such were evil too? (except for the 2 of every)

    Drowning an army... If you are reffering to when moses and company was being pursued thorugh the red sea, read it correctly. That was not god. MOSES parted the sea to escape genocide, and closed it to escape death, murder, and other unpleasant things. GOD did not do this, as you claim.

    Saying that Moses did this is not the whoel truth, as the bible gives god the credit. I quote, " the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea" and "Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore."

    The firstborn child and the other plagues... Imagine if your entire family except your dad were slaves. Dirt was treated better, and finally the person in charge promised to set you free. NOT. They decide to keep you as slaves. Do you think your dad would want to help you out in this position? He sent the plagues so he could save his people, not so he could torture some egyptians for the fun of it. He was trying to convince the egytians that they should keep their promise, that they should release his people.

    So he killed the innocent children? And then he killed a bunch of firstborn cattle too? To top it off god made sure that the Pharoh didn't just let the people go.
    "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Ex 10:20"

    Could you please supply a link or text for the rest of your examples? I dont have access to a copy of the bible handy, and cannot research the rest of these examples.

    Yup, I'll paste links for the rest
     
  12. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    By request bible out-takes of the referenced sections...
    This is probably your best bet. I don't want to cut something out which you see as important.
    http://home.attbi.com/~b.subrahmanyam/Biblehtm.htm

    How is Lot giving his daughters to be raped love?
    Genesis 19:008

    How is animal sacrifice for god = love?
    Genesis 4:003 - Got respects the offereing of flock more then fruit. (I agree this one is not decisive)
    Leviticus Chapter 1 to 9 - Extremely detailed directions for how to sacrifice
    Numbers 18:17 - "But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD. "
    Deuteronomy 012:027 - "...and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh. "
    Malachi 001:012 - "...The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible." (He only wants good animal sacrifices. The "torn, and the lame, and the sick" are evidently not to be sacrificed)
    Jeremiah 014:012 - "...and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence." (granted this was a unique circumstance)

    How is destroying people who do not believe in god = love?

    Exodus 022:020 - "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

    How is killing someone for breaking Sabath love? Ex 31:14

    031:014 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

    How is killing Korah for arguing with Moses love?

    Numbers 016:032 - "And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods."

    How is killing all of the Midianites, including the children, excluding the virgins... love?

    Numbers 31 - Whole chapter

    How does killing for worship of the wrong god =love? Deut 6:15

    Deut 006:015 - "For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. (Seems that it is a jealous god as well)

    How is commanding people to stone others who don't believe you love?

    Deut 21:21 - "And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die" (The conditions for stoning are addressed right before that)
    Deut 22:021 - "...and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. "
    Deut 22:024 - "Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. " (Rape victims die for not crying out... hope they don't put their hand over her mouth)

    How is ording the sons of Levi to kill = love?

    Exodus 032:028 - "And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. " (moses stated it was the word of god)

    How is god supporting the act of Phinehas killing a woman with a spear love?

    Numnbers 025:008 - "And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly." (He was then rewarded) "So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. "

    How is killing people because the pronounce "shibboleth" wrong = love?

    Judges 012:006 - "Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand."

    How does god sending Isrealites to their death love?
    How does god's killing of the other side (Benjamites) equal love? (once again kill all but virgins)
    How is killing people who look into the ark love?
    How is killing 70000 others for the 'sin' of David equal to love?
    How is killing the Syrians love?
    How is god letting Judah kill = love?

    Getting these now... listing the rest in the meantime
     
  13. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    How does god sending Isrealites to their death love?
    Judges 020:018 - "...and asked counsel of God, and said, Which of us shall go up first to the battle against the children of Benjamin? And the LORD said, Judah shall go up first."
    20:21 - "..the children of Benjamin came forth out of Gibeah, and destroyed down to the ground of the Israelites that day 20 and 2000 men. "
    20:23 - "...saying, Shall I go up again to battle against the children of Benjamin my brother? And the LORD said, Go up against him."
    20:25 - "And Benjamin went forth... and destroyed down to the ground of the children of Israel again eighteen thousand men; all these drew the sword."

    How does god's killing of the other side (Benjamites) equal love?(once again kill all but virgins)

    Judges 20-21

    How is killing people who look into the ark love?

    1 Samuel 6:019 - "And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter. "

    How is killing 70000 others for the 'sin' of David equal to love?

    First lets just mention that much of 2 Samuel is David killing people for god.
    2 Samuel 12:13-14 - "And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. " (Starts by killing David son)
    21:001 - "Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites. " (The leader sins and his people pay)
    24:015 - "So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men." (here's that 70000)

    How is killing the Syrians love?

    1 Kings 20:28-29- "And there came a man of God, and spake unto the king of Israel, and said, Thus saith the LORD, Because the Syrians have said, The LORD is God of the hills, but he is not God of the valleys, therefore will I deliver all this great multitude into thine hand, and ye shall know that I am the LORD. And they pitched one over against the other seven days. And so it was, that in the seventh day the battle was joined: and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians an hundred thousand footmen in one day."

    How is god letting Judah kill = love?

    Judges 001:004 - "And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men."
     
  14. Bridge Registered Senior Member

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    291
    Persol

    Presumably everything God does has a purpose. Whether or not we realize it at the time makes little or no difference to a sovereign entity.

    You need to elaborate on one issue at a time. Since the alleged contradictions and the alleged answers to those alleged contradictions could easily take years to sort through and could literally fill a library, I'm suggesting you might wish to specify where in the Bible God lied and we can discuss that first.
     
  15. man_of_jade Psychic person Registered Senior Member

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    436
    So the animals were evil too?
    OBVIOUSLY you cannot fit every animal alive into one boat. I never said that they were evil.

    Actually, yes i have...
    Ok, i admit i screwed up there.

    Saying that Moses did this is not the whoel truth, as the bible gives god the credit. I quote, " the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea" and "Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore."

    BUT you cannot discount it also saying and i qoute from the bible (i found one after all)
    "And the LORD said unto moses,
    Stretch thine hand over the
    sea, that the waters may come
    again upon the Egyptians, upon
    their chariots, and upon their
    horsemen."
    "And moses stretched forth his
    hand over the sea, and the sea
    returned to his strength when the
    morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it"
    While it DOES say what u put up earlier, you cannot simply discount everything except one small part of a passage. These passages imply, in my point of view, that Moses closed the sea, by powers given to him by God. God is not directly responsible for closing the sea, but in a sense God did save the Isrealites, which could be why it is written that way.

    So he killed the innocent children? And then he killed a bunch of firstborn cattle too? To top it off god made sure that the Pharoh didn't just let the people go.
    "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Ex 10:20"

    Would you kill in defence of another, like say a son or another loved one, if they were to be killed, and there was no other option? What if a murderer was about to kill your family, and you had a chance to save them by killing the murderer? Would you kill the murderer, or let your family die by your inaction?
    But the lord hardened the pharaohs heart... Could it be that when it says he hardened his heart, that it was not intentional? You have to realize all points of view here. His heart could have been hardened by the actions of God, not God actively hardening the pharaohs heart. Remember that this is translated from another language, and different languages has different grammar. For example, in English we would say "big table", while in spanish you would say "table big". How we view it in English context is different than in another languages context.
     
  16. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Persol

    Originally posted by Bridge
    You need to elaborate on one issue at a time. Since the alleged contradictions and the alleged answers to those alleged contradictions could easily take years to sort through and could literally fill a library, I'm suggesting you might wish to specify where in the Bible God lied and we can discuss that first.
    Ok... I guess I'd start near the beginning

    Genesis 2:17 - "But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
    Genesis 5:5 - "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."
     
  17. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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  18. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Lol... I forgot to include my response to the point at hand.
    This is saying that God killed all those animals because he had no better choice. Doesn't that put limitations on the same being that created the universe?
     
  19. Nehushta Registered Senior Member

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    305
    A not so groovy kind of love...

    Regarding God being a liar, here are some biblical passages which support this idea:

    Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.


    1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.


    2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    I might also point out that there are many passages where God supposedly claims to be the only god and savior, and that there is no other savior beside him. He takes great pains to make sure his people understand this concept and that it is written on their hearts that God is One, and he is not a man - then he allegedly comes to earth as a man (or sends his only begotten son who is supposedly the second person of the Triune - take your pick), and promises to destroy all those who don't believe in him!

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    It is a mystery to me how anyone can believe anything that comes from a god who admittedly lies for the purpose of destroying and damning people!

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  20. man_of_jade Psychic person Registered Senior Member

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    In my view if I give someone a weapon to kill I am just as responsible for the murder. Since the Bible is giving God the credit, surely he holds some of the responsibility as well.

    He saved an entire race of people. he stopped a genocide. If you were in is position right then and there, would you have let the sea stay parted and have the egyptians murder the isrealites, or would you have killed a few bloodthirsty soldiers to stop the race from dying?

    I would do it only as my last choice. However, God goes beyond just killing the murderer, but the murderer's family and some of the family's food supply.

    While i think that it was going a bit far with killing the firstborns, the pharaoh was very set in his ways. The pharaoh wanted an entire race as his slaves, but with a recent example of who slaves were treated (the holocaust, the German Soldiers thought them to be as disposable as kleenex...) There is no way of telling that a race of people would have survived, they could have been slaves forever. God tried to send a message here, as he sent darkness, boils, locusts and the pharaoh didnt change his mind. I think that while it was a bit extreme, the pharaoh wasnt going to change his mind really any other way. The Result doesnt necassarily justify the ends though... However, one could argue that he did this to prevent the murder of his people, and therefore it was out of love, even if that was kinda extreme.

    I'd argue that you can't fit 2 of every type either... but that's besides the point.

    Of course, we are assuming that we are able to fit in one of every animal in this case hehe
     
  21. man_of_jade Psychic person Registered Senior Member

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    436
    Doh back to the aminal thing... The limitations were not on god in this case, but upon the Noah, who had to build a ship and supply food for all the animals for forty days... Thats quite a bit of food... Of course this is in that region of the world, and it COULD mean two of each animal in that region, which then wouldnt be as much. Even then thats a lot of food hehe
     
  22. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Originally posted by man_of_jade
    In my view if I give someone a weapon to kill I am just as responsible for the murder. Since the Bible is giving God the credit, surely he holds some of the responsibility as well.
    He saved an entire race of people. he stopped a genocide. If you were in is position right then and there, would you have let the sea stay parted and have the egyptians murder the isrealites, or would you have killed a few bloodthirsty soldiers to stop the race from dying?

    I see other options, like a wall of water infront of the soldiers.

    I would do it only as my last choice. However, God goes beyond just killing the murderer, but the murderer's family and some of the family's food supply.
    There is no way of telling that a race of people would have survived, they could have been slaves forever. God tried to send a message here... The Result doesnt necassarily justify the ends though... However, one could argue that he did this to prevent the murder of his people, and therefore it was out of love, even if that was kinda extreme.

    You could argue that it is out of love for the Isrealites, but what about love for the firstborn children?

    I'd argue that you can't fit 2 of every type either... but that's besides the point.
    Of course, we are assuming that we are able to fit in one of every animal in this case hehe

    For the sake of argument we'll just assume that all of the animals were midgets

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    There are plenty of ways around the 2 animals part, so lets just leave that alone.
     
  23. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    A Truly Remarkable Joke

    This should be archived as a remarkable example of presenting a truly bad argument while engaging in double talk while tap dancing all over the place, i.e.: WTF, you'ld do the same thing if if it was your family and maybe it didn't mean what it meant because, well, you know, different languages have different grammer, I mean, maybe hardening Pharoahs heart just meant "table big", you know, after all, God wouldn't lie, would he?
     

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