Which came first?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by firefighter, Feb 17, 2003.

  1. firefighter Registered Senior Member

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    Which came first, the universe or the laws which govern the universe?
     
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  3. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    Laws govern nothing.

    Laws are nothing more than well established theories that have resisted all attempts at falsification. Theories are nothing more than testable explanations of phenomena. Explanations do not preceed that which is being explained.
     
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  5. firefighter Registered Senior Member

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    CA,

    In physics we hear about "laws that govern" such as the laws that govern planetary motion. Do you think the complex and orderly nature of such phenomena developed randomly, by chance, and came into existence after the universe came to be? Or, does it appear to you that such phenomena was planned for the universe to exist the way it does?

    Something else?
     
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  7. Bridge Registered Senior Member

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    Great topic FF

    I have often pondered that very question until my mind has gone numb, much like a butt on a bleacher watching a dull baseball game.

    Without action by an outside force or some manifested volition from within, the natural state of matter is to be at rest. However, existence must occur before consciousness can happen (then again if consciousness doesn't first exist it isn't there to begin with - a metaphysical axiom that could have unfathomable ramifications.

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  8. ribot luminous energy Registered Senior Member

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    i would say the universe, since i think it's beyond physics. or that they came together, if u mean that the universe is the physical definition of it.
     
  9. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    How about -

    The universe is an inevitable result of the interactions intrinsic to reality. There can be no first since each is a dependent manifestation of the other. I.e. if the universe did not exist then reality could not be perceived and if reality did not exist then the universe could not be perceived.

    Laws are simply our attempt at describing reality.
     
  10. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    Vernacular.
    No, but nice try.
     
  11. firefighter Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Great topic FF

    Yeah. I know what you mean. I came across some literature yesterday that talked about people who literally went insane after delving too deeply into similar questions. Sorry.

    O.K., then. It sounds like you're saying that there must be some type of cause and effect relationship.

    What if consciousness was a separate dimension?
     
  12. firefighter Registered Senior Member

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    O.K. What interactions resulted in the universe? Here it sounds like you're describing a cause and effect relationship.

    O.K. Here it sounds like you're taking an acausal position.

    When was the universe first perceived? Where does consciousness fit in the model for you?

    Is your reality causal or acausal?
     
  13. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    A Little IDer Plays Socrates

    What if circles tasted better than triangles, but were much louder than squares?

    What if you stop playing your tiresome little game, take a position and defend it?

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  14. IXL777 mature with wisdom Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Great topic FF


    A metaphysical axiom that could have unfathomable ramifications.:
    Which came first, the universe or the laws which govern the universe?

    This question is a falsehood deception non sequitur....both came in at the same time....2 equal sounds.... one created the matter and one created the thought..both consciousness and matter existed as sound...
    dominic
     
  15. ribot luminous energy Registered Senior Member

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    wait a minute (i'm slow). are we talkin about the laws of physics here? maybe the laws of physics change over time. maybe there were no laws in the beginning and they started to come when humans so much wanted it.

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  16. Bridge Registered Senior Member

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    So that was a satisfying answer?

    After you

    No after you

    No I insist, after you

    No, no, no, after you

    Okay, we'll both go in together


    and One ring to rule them all.....

    But the Ring was lost. It fell into the Great River, Anduin,
    and vanished. For Isuldur was marching north along the
    east banks of the River, and near the Gladden Fields he
    was waylaid by the Orcs of the Mountains, and almost
    all his folk were slain. He leaped into the waters, but the
    Ring slipped from his finger as he swam, and then the
    Orcs saw him and killed him with arrows.
     
  17. firefighter Registered Senior Member

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    56
    ribot,

    I was talking about the observed phenomena that the "laws" attempt to explain and yes, from a human standpoint, the explanations do change over time.
     
  18. firefighter Registered Senior Member

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    Re: A Little IDer Plays Socrates

    I'm willing to defend causality or acausality. Which position would you like me to give to you? We can debate one side each for a number of posts and then both switch to the opposing viewpoint for another round of debate if you'd like.
     
  19. firefighter Registered Senior Member

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    56
    Re: Re: Great topic FF

    What is the basis for this opinion?
     
  20. Bridge Registered Senior Member

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    291
    I was wondering the same thing......

    Where in the heck did the sound come from?
     
  21. IXL777 mature with wisdom Registered Senior Member

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    Re: So that was a satisfying answer?

    you are a wise man bridge..its knowining what the "ring" is!!
     
  22. IXL777 mature with wisdom Registered Senior Member

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    2 equal sounds creates SILENCE.......then due to harmonics the sounds got out of sanc...then"BIG BANG................................

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  23. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, the laws describe how the fundamental forces of nature (strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic, and gravity) energy, and matter interact. Thus far, we have found that as we approach the conditions of the origin of the Universe (Big-Bang) three of these four forces were combined (SN, WN, EM), theorists and experimenters have been working on proving that at an even earlier point all four forces were combined in a single force. As it stands, the 'orderly' nature of... well nature seems to be a natural result of the expansion of the Universe from a singularity. Since time is intrinsically tied to space any hypothesis as to the cause of the 'big bang' is free of any temporal restriction.

    As to causality, quantum physics has given us some rather surprising facts to deal with. It seems that nothing is not really nothing. There is an energy level at the ground state which can fluctuate, causing a pair of particles to simply appear out of nothing (ref: virtual particles, and vacuum fluctuations). Most of these particles quickly return to nothing but there are some theoretical conditions by which they might remain. This and other facets of quantum physics show that, rather than being directly causal, most of what occurs at subatomic levels is probabilistic in nature.

    Which makes no sense at all. Sound is vibrations through matter. So how could sound exist before matter?

    Actually, no. Two opposite or, more properly, inverse sounds create silence. A concept known as deconstructive interference which is used in active sound cancellation devices. Of course, this is all still moot as you need to address the problem above.

    ~Raithere
     

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