Sin

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by wesmorris, Feb 10, 2003.

  1. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Kind of judgemental eh? Why are we all so fascinated with it? Even we non-religious people still use the word though it seems that it can really only be religious in nature. Are you a sinner? Do you care? What is sin? Why do we do it? Why is it sinfull? Isn't most everything besides cold-blooded murder just human nature? Whassup?
     
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  3. Turduckin A Fowl Trinity Registered Senior Member

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    Why do you exclude this one in particular as not being part of human nature?
     
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  5. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    I dunno, it's a good song.
     
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  7. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Sin

    Because it isn't? It's only natural (in modern society anyway) to kill in self defense. Don't you think the rest is due to sociopaths and other insane fucks? *shrug* I guess maybe I was off on that part... I just hate murderous bastards. Seems to me like it is against human nature because it is exactly opposite of what is good for the species in evolutionary terms.
     
  8. Turduckin A Fowl Trinity Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Re: Sin

    I can imagine a scenario where I could put a bullet in someone who just killed my wife or child. And if that is imaginable, then all you have to do is replace "wife and child" with whatever you happen to believe is at least equally important.
     
  9. Turduckin A Fowl Trinity Registered Senior Member

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    How about 'missing the mark'?
     
  10. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Like if my boy comes on my hair rather than my face?
     
  11. LaoTzu Registered Senior Member

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    It's Good For You

    Sin is a useless concept.

    And murder is very, very natural.
     
  12. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    I believe sin means to disobey a god.

    It has no meaning outside of a religious context.

    To do something bad means to take an action that is against a predefined moral code.

    For theistic religions that moral code is what is defined in their holy books, or what their god has defined.

    In a secular society the moral code is what has been defined by laws and mutually accepted customs and traditions. Or defined by reason and logic for the benefit of mankind.
     
  13. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Sin

    Eh, I see your point but I think you're stretching a bit. I love my computer but I wouldn't kill you for it. Mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there is a reason that it's not socially acceptable to just kill whoever you want.

    Eh, who am I kidding, there are a lot of people who would just kill people for the shit of it if there weren't a risk of getting caught. Ack, that's so disgusting.
     
  14. Turduckin A Fowl Trinity Registered Senior Member

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    So, maybe I'm off base here. It's OK to sell all sorts of products with publicly desplayed sexual images because sex is almost instinctually desirable and therefore a good marketing tool. And if my niece gets obsessed about the fact that she doesn't measure up to these air-brushed fantasies, and begins to develop anorexia - then there is no foul here? Or that all those public displays of flesh make young men drowning in testosterone think it's ok to think of women as sexual objects, there is no foul? Chris and LauTzu, are you making an argument for straight moral relativism, that there is no absolute wrong?

    And, as a side-note Chris - most of the laws we have are derived from mutually accepted Judeo-Christian customs and traditions. Or am I mistaken?
     
  15. Turduckin A Fowl Trinity Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sin

    I think this next question is still related to this thread - but would you be describing evil, here?
     
  16. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    well, it shouldn't... but it seems as if people let it bleed over into whatever. that's not neccessarily bad, but the fascination with it and labelling it as such seems to have a seductive element to uhm... some people ya know?
    Eh, that's not neccessarily true. Technically you're correct, but man.. a lot of people are just making up shit as they go. In fact I wonder if most people really have the mental capacity to realize the implications (and live to) of the moral systems they claim to adhere to. You know what I'm getting at?
    yeah, on a barely related note, I'm interested in your reaction to the following analagy:

    I think the reaason that capitolism is so successfull as a means of economic distribution is because it is almost exactly evolution. Evolution is an inherently successful system, but it is not wholly satisfactory given that we tend to frown on things that aren't fair. Thusly you have laws. Hrmph. I got to the end of that and well.. I used to think it was insightful. Nevermind.
     
  17. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sin

    Eh, if you'd like... but my definition would be relatively simplistic... for one, evil is relative.... in that my and yours are not likely the same.. the last part is, it's the negative end of a scale of behavior and attitude... good and evil... positive... negative. That's about all I have to say regarding the topic, oh.. and that in general, I think evil people suck. I don't know though, I mean, I might say that people who suck are evil? Hehe, I suppose that depends on if they're sucking me? Sorry, that was terrible yet I couldn't resist.
     
  18. Turduckin A Fowl Trinity Registered Senior Member

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    Yeah, you should read the reply I'm not giving Xev.

    But, back to sin. I have to disagree with Laotzu. I don't think it's completely useless. Though we might not agree on what is a 'sin', I think that we all have some standard by which we measure ours own conduct, and intrinsically know when we fall short of that standard (basic Hegel I guess). But I think sin becomes more useful in the context of our interactions with others. For me, the sin of our consumer society is that we are consuming at an unsustainable rate. At some point we will run out of the resources that we currently take for granted - like fresh water or oil, or uncontaminated soil. One man put it this way - "We are starving our grandchildren to feed our children". This, to me, is an appropriate use of the term sin.
     
  19. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    I'm down with that... cool point. I think that is a good counter to some of what Cris was getting at too...
     
  20. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    turduckin,

    So doesn't this say that you can reason just as well as I can. Can't we reason that in the long term these things are not to the benefit of mankind? We don't need a religion or gods to see the same logic and then create some meaningful solutions. All Christianity does is threaten the offenders with an eternity in hell for being bad. Well clearly not many people buy that gibberish any longer. What are missing are real solutions and unfortunately too many people expect religions to provide that. As soon as we can eliminate religious influence from society then we can set about establish real solutions. Christianity has been trying for 2000 years and has clearly failed miserably.

    To determine there is an absolute right or wrong requires an absolute standard and there is no such thing. Morality must be defined relative to the needs of humanity, nothing else make sense.

    You may well be correct. And this shows that man has been struggling for millennia to define moral codes. Note that it was man that wrote all the religious books and ideas. It has been man who has been trying to second-guess what a god might define as absolute standards. In short we have been following our own standards for a long time. Unfortunately, with the outdated idea that the ancient laws are absolute means that they have not evolved with our changing needs.

    As soon as we can dispense with the illusions of religion then perhaps we can bring ourselves up to date.
     
  21. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    wes,

    I guess this is true if you are thinking of survival of the fittest. But such a system is very harsh. It forces most people into spending their lives performing tasks that they would rather not do. I see real problems and the breakdown of such systems when we start to introduce intelligent machines that can easily replace the roles of humans.

    Successful is a relative term I think. It has taken evolution billions of years for us to arrive and we are a mess. As we learn more about ourselves and develop new technologies I fully expect that we will direct our own future and not have to wait for millions of years of random mutations to occur. But that isn’t quite what you meant. Evolution wasn't intelligently directed so we should expect massive injustice in much of what occurs. Diseases such as cancer etc are extremely unfair.

    I think laws are necessary because of our limited intelligence. Once we learn to enhance our intelligence to levels very significantly beyond our current state then I would suspect that laws would become unnecessary.
     

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