What is wrong with this logic?

Premise 1

God is considered perfect in every way

Premise 2

A truly perfect being has no imperfections

Premise 3

A truly perfect being could not create any imperfect thing

Premise 4

We are not completely perfect

Conclusion

We could not have been created by God

 

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Premise 3 is mistaken

A perfect being might create an imprefect thing if its perfect will so dictates.

It is better to refer to a stand-by of mine: The Blind Webster, by Perdurabo.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Been there, done that. Not to criticize, but I did struggle with this at a <i>very</i> young age.
First, premise 1 and 2 and 3 are the same, because being perfect in every way implies 1 and 3. However, a perfect being could create anything. In the movie, "Ghost in the Shell," a very interesting parallel is drawn. The entity, project 2501, does not wish to replicate himself, because it would limit his existence to one perspective, one knowledge. (paraphrased)
Philosophically, it would serve no purpose for a perfect being create itself over and over again. But, "Why create an imperfect thing?" is the question that follows.
Art is not perfect in the context of its dimensions or completeness.
Love, should be unconditional and all-encompassing.
To suggest that God's love is conditional would be a different argument, but I mention just these two traits of humanity above for a reason.
It would suffice to say that a perfect being would love beauty. Notice in the previous sentence, love and beauty are connected. This is the embodiment of art, where poetry, music, etc...are connected to humanity.
What would be more beautiful for a perfect being than the struggle to be perfect?
What would the imperfect beings this 'God' created learn at the peak of their existence? Unconditional love?

It is not logical or illogical to assume a perfect being would design a Univere filled with both random chance and order.
We simply are incapable of comprehending the logic or thoughts deeply embedded in such a being. Primarily, because we are imperfect. Yet, surrounding us are subjective views, where each of us can find beauty, love, and hopefully happiness.
And, for these things, I am grateful.

 

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i may be wrong on this, but weren't adam and eve originally created perfectly??? the imperfectness came after they ate the apple did it not?.......but that still doesnt answer it because the Fall was part of the Plan too.........hmmmmmmm I must admit this is still something I struggle with but I agree that we cant fully understand the perfect thoughts/actions of a perfect God because we ourselves are not perfect

 

Yes, but I like to think that we have the potential of becoming perfect

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I disagree. A perfect being is incapable of creating something imperfect; there's no room for mistakes in perfection.

Perhaps the right word here is omnipotent. An omnipotent being can create whatever it wants. Therefore (assuming that we are imperfect), we may have been created by an omnipotent but imperfect god. Or, if god is perfect then it's not omnipotent since it cannot create faulty things.

But then again, if god is omnipotent, it can be both perfect and imperfect. Logic takes us nowhere here, I guess I'm going around in circles..

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Grey Seal;

Well, If you can't bring yourself to bluntly express your disagreement, you can always diplomatically state "let's agree to disagree'.

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People will never reach consensus in regards to god because all we have access to are our perceptions of him.

 

i'll try and reply to you all here

Tiassa, I guess I do not understand. If something is truly perfect, I am not talking, near perfect, almost perfect, but true perfection, wouldn't it be a logical conclusion that the being would create something perfect? I mean if he creates imperfection then this would reflect back on the creator. A cliche works well here 'Humans are not perfect.' We use this to explain why we make mistakes. Why do we make mistakes, because we are not perfect, if we were perfect we wouldnt make mistakes correct? So how is making something not perfect not a mistake? Please help me understand this better.





Fluidy, thank you for your insistance on making yourself feel superior to me, I gladly appriciate it. "..very young age."

I understand the first 3 premises are very much the same, but if you ask most people they will not deduce the second two just from the first with respect to God.

I agree with you that a perfect being would probably not want to replicate itself for it would limit himself, but that is in no way what i am trying to prove, the only thing I wish to conclude is that God did not create us.

I do not understand how your two questions relate to my argument in the first place, the first makes reference to a being wanting to see us 'struggle' to perfection, but why? what would a perfect being NEED to see us struggle for, and if perfection is what he wants why not create us that way, there is no need to struggle. The second question has nothing to do with this I believe, please explain how it belongs and then I will answer it.

I do believe it is illogical for a 'perfect' being to create such an imperfect place. For the imperfections here show something of the creator, his 'image' of imperfection.




New Life, if you have the potential of failure, that makes you imperfect, which Adam and Eve had, assuming they existed.




Grey Seal, I also love your insistence on making yourself feel superior to me. Your sarcasm is just lovely.... I believe circe said what I was going to say to you in the first part of her post.

In addition, to the second part of your post, what is stopping it from making such a imperfect being? Its perfection, I understand this is hard for some people to differentiate between, but I am not talking near perfection, I am talking perfection in everyway, INCAPABLE of making a mistake.



Circe, I agree, if god is not perfect then my arguement has no room.



Grey Seal's second post

There would be no will in a perfect being, it would just be the way, therefore he would never 'think' of making something imperfect, with flaws, for it would be a flawed design, something not perfect, and if someone makes something not perfect that reflects on the designer of not being perfect.

 

Actually, this is a relatively recent and thoroughly Judeo-Christian view. There is absolutely nothing inherent in a God concept that demands perfection.

That's tautologically true, but, as I note above, not particularly relevant.

This is simply flawed. A truly skilled calligrapher can scribble. A truly masterful artist can (and will) create distortion and dissonance for any number of reasons.

No doubt.

The first 3 premises are faulty, and the 4th upsetting. I do, however, agree with the conclusion.

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I disagree with premise 4. I think we are exactly perfect. I think as far as we can tell we adhere perfectly to the specifications of the universe.

See this thread: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15024 if you're interested.

 

I owe you an apology

Fluidy, thank you for your insistance on making yourself feel superior to me, I gladly appriciate it. "..very young age."
<HR>
In my experience, people learn different things at different times. It has nothing to do with intelligence. I simply meant to say, "I thought about this all the time when I was a kid."

 

I thougth God was omnipotent.......it is His LOVE that is perfect.......but I may be quite mistaken

 

The perfect GOD created imperfect man/woman to learn what it is to be imperfect.. and make it perfect again.. and again.. and again...

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I will once agrain try to reply to you all, if I forget something please let me know.


ConsequentAthiest
I think that it may be inherently true about their God, at least to reconcile their belief in him. For if it weren't then their god, being not perfect, could in fact say tomarrow that they are all f**** and send them to eternal torture. Considering that most believe because they are scared to die, whether they say it or not we all know it's true. And I particularly doubt any religious person would call their god imperfect. You are definately true if they do not consider their god perfect though.

BTW I am not familier with the term 'tautologically' could you please tell me

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As for your reply to premise 3, you are comparing it to <u>nearly</u> perfect artists, and calligrapher. I doubt any <u>perfect</u> calligrapher would ever scribble.



Wesmoris, I read that thread, and you state that since we cannot know the specifications of the universe that we cannot state whether it is perfect or not. but how can you say the converse is true, without knowing the specifications of course, If you see a bridge and do not know the specifications you could say the same thing, but tomarrow the bridge falls down you cannot say that yesterday the bridge was perfect. also to further my point if we were perfect wouldnt that imply we are all the same? you are better at soemthings then I am, and hence are more perfect in some respects then I correct?



Grey, you are absoluetely correct, we are speculating. I am trying to only draw logically conclusions from the being being perfect (sorry for the ambiguity there). Grey hound is a perfect example for a dog but it isnt for a cat so grey hound isnt completely perfect which is where I think our reasoning is differing, if something is completely perfect it cannot have any flaws, hence its creation cannot be flawed, I hope that explains my point better.



Fluidy, appology accepted, I wasn't offended by it, I was just trying to hint towards you that some will, and it actually gets away from your purpose to persuade people, because people will start attacking you instead of your argument.




Everneo, imperfection now, just to have perfection later, is still imperfection since we are not perfect in every way, I think that would be illogical, since if any part of the person in question (including his past) was not perfect then the person in question would not be perfect.

 

You've missed my maybe somewhat retarded point. I just contend that since we do not know of "specifications" we can only assume that our understanding of the nature of the universe, via physics, biology. etc. is as close to a guestimate of what those "specifications" might be as our species can present. Since we know things like f=ma and f=ma is always true (I realize that quantum mechanics will contradict me, I'm just trying to justify my retarded point), then it functions perfectly when applied to the appropriate case.

It just think life to be absolutely perfect, regardless of what my inclination might be to think of something as "negative", that doesn't matter. I'm really just trying to get at a much more subtle point of perspective and attitude.

Life is perfect if you can stomach the fact that it might initially seem imperfect to you... when actually everything is operating exactly as it should... by definition. If that bridge fell down, that is because it's design allowed it to. The intent may have been otherwise, but the universe does not fail in exerting its properties (which are largely unknown), regardless of the function we attempt to manipulate it to perform.

 

I thought GOD got bored of being the only perfect being and wanted to have some fun in indulging in this.. that.. !

OK.. to be serious, tell me what is perfection! I know it of a process to get specific ideal state. I say specific because perception of perfection differs. What seems to be perfect to u may not be so for others.. The fins of a dolphin are at odds with otherwise smooth aerodynamic body..(for an asthetic freak). But they are perfectly alright and necessary for the poor dolphin to survive..!

If u say "That sculpture is perfect in all aspects" then u should remember the it was sculpted from a raw rock. Hope u won't declare "No sculpture is perfect because once it was an imperfect
rock"..!

bye for now.. cheers..

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Wesmoris, the universe does conform to its specifications, but so does that bridge that fell down, it went over its weight capacity, or was poorly built, but to its specifications everything is perfect, the bridge was perfect up to its point, and so is everything else, but you have to put the term 'perfect' in context, the bridge would be better if built properly, and the universe could be better if, and i use this loosely, built properly. Perfection is an absolute as i look at it, if something can be better then the previous is not perfect at what its doing.



everneo, for the record i am not a humanities person so i would never say any sculpture is perfect, there is always a better way to represent your ideas. on to what perfect is, i guess to me. I would say perfect is not being able to get better, if something is able to get better then the previous thing wouldnt be perfect.

 

So, all of the Gods in the Greco-Roman Pantheon were perfect, all the Gods in the Egyptian Pantheon were perfect, all of the Gods in the Babylonian Pantheon were perfect, all of the Gods in the Summerian Pantheon were perfect, and, in Genesis 32, the God of the Israelites is perfect - and loses in a wrestling match with Jacob. Let it go.

 

ConsequentAtheist, haha, it seems like you are trying to win something big with this, I am trying to be informal and friendly with this, nothing largely at stake here. First I doubt very many believe in these gods nowadays that you mentioned. second, I do believe followers of the god of the israelites believes their god to be perfect. I couldnt sit here and think of anyone i have talked to who was of that faith that said their god was not perfect. Not one. What muslim calls Allah imperfect? what christian calls their god imperfect, it kinda defeats the purpose of his master plan, being benevolent, omnipotent, omnipresence, his whole being, it would make him just some average joe.

 

"Better" is subjective.. i don't think any good sculptor would satisfy with his work if doesn't represent his ideas better. Ofcourse as u said u won't descend to human plane..!

Again, i really don't know what u mean by better..

Why should God think "I should get better" ..!. and Why God should not think that his creations may get better as per his own schemes and schedule..!

Better u get out of ur mysterious notion about ur "better"..

cheers..

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