Independence for Scotland?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Michael, Sep 16, 2014.

?

Do you support Independence for Scotland?

  1. Yes

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Could [not] care one way or the other.

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    Should the Scottish vote for self-determination?
     
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  3. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    8,466
    Scots Wha Hae
    BY ROBERT BURNS
    Scots, wha hae wi' Wallace bled,
    Scots, wham Bruce has aften led;
    Welcome to your gory bed,
    Or to victory!

    Now's the day, and now's the hour;
    See the front o' battle lour;
    See approach proud Edward's power—
    Chains and slavery!

    Wha will be a traitor knave?
    Wha can fill a coward's grave!
    Wha sae base as be a slave?
    Let him turn and flee!

    Wha for Scotland's king and law
    Freedom's sword will strongly draw,
    Freeman stand, or freeman fa',
    Let him follow me!

    By oppression's woes and pains!
    By your sons in servile chains!
    We will drain our dearest veins,
    But they shall be free!

    Lay the proud usurpers low!
    Tyrants fall in every foe!
    Liberty's in every blow!—
    Let us do or die!

    .....................
    What was gained shall be lost and what was lost may be regained
    bannockburn
    or
    culloden moor
    ?
     
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  5. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    5,902
    It seems to me that Scotland has a pretty sweet deal as part of the UK. It already has its own regional identity and its own regional government. It can already do its Scottish historical and cultural things to its heart's content. But at the same time, it's part of something bigger, something that still matters in the wider world. If Scotland leaves the UK, I don't see how its history or local culture will benefit particularly. The only thing that will happen is that Scots who travel to London will suddenly be visiting the capital of a foreign country.

    If Scotland leaves the UK, the place will shrink tremendously in the consciousness of the average American here in the States, reduced from being part of one of the world's more important countries to being another of the many smaller European nations like Slovakia or Estonia.

    I saw an electoral map yesterday that showed how polling looks in various parts of Scotland. It turned out that 'no' is winning just about everywhere including Edinburgh and the Highlands. The one place where 'yes' is leading by a good margin is Glasgow (and especially its struggling rust-belt satellites). The old 'Red-Clyde', I guess. But it's Scotland's largest city and the 'yes' sentiment there makes the election too-close-to-call.
     
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Ha! Most Americans have no idea what the UK is and already think of Scotland as a totally separate 'entity' / country. Americans know "Brave Heart" and that's about it.

    I think Scotland should leave - it sets a wonderful precedence. The very fact so many Politicians are using propaganda and threats through the MSM to influence the election shows what a farce 'Democracy' actually is. If Democracy was about enacting the will of the people, there'd be none of the propaganda being employed. Lastly, Scotland has a lot of resources, a deep culture, their own identity and, once the English debt is lifted from their children's shoulders, can set about putting their house in order - debt free. Why should 5 generations of Scots pay for England/London's idiocracy? The answer is they shouldn't and now's as good a time as any to amicably part ways.
     
  8. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    Polls are rubbish designed to push people into following the herd.
     
  9. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    What a silly poll maker! For the third choice he puts "could care one way or the other" when he really means "could NOT care one way or the other". Egad, ignorance!

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  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    12,451
    You do realise, I hope, that the Bank of England baled out the Royal Bank of Scotland when it was about to go bust? And that Scottish state spending exceeds that of England per head and is financed by the UK's National Debt? So less of "English" debt, if you don't mind. It's been part of one country for 300 years and it serves no purpose to pick apart who is owed what and by whom.
     
  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,451
    That's it exactly. The rust belt Scots blame their economic decline on Thatcher and fondly imagine they would have done better if they had had self rule. But in fact a lot of the industry in the West was uneconomic and propped up with subsidies from the rest of the UK, the Ravenscraig steel plant being perhaps the most egregious example. Thatcher simply had the guts to allow the inevitable to take place. But the resentment is there, nonetheless.
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    So you can speak to most Americans now? And actually, Scotland has a lesser per capita GDP than England.

    I like the romantic notion of an independent Scottland. But from a practical and pragmatic point of view, it makes little sense.
     
  13. orcot Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,488
    why do they do this on a Thursday? What's wrong with Saterday/Sunday people have to work.

    For the end result we shall see? I'm curious abouth the fallout either way
     
  14. orcot Valued Senior Member

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    What the hell I actually like Robert Burns works
     
  15. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    8,466
    as do I
     
  16. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    13,105

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    If the Scots get their independence, I wonder if they realise they could end up with a whole bunch of court pursuit's for damages, after all every Briton won't want to spend money on having to replace an obsolete passport because of a definitive "Yes" vote. That could end up costing the Scottish Economy Billions in .... well.... whatever currency they intend to use.
     
  17. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    12,738
    As Burns once said

    Bitter a mon be like a puir moose in its awn wee hame
    than a lion in a rented caravan maeid o gauld. The noo.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    Well, we'll know soon enough. I'm looking forward to similar voting to occur in the USA (though, for now, that's a few decades away). Either way, I think the vote itself sets a fantastic precedence - peaceful succession. If the vote is no, I still take this gesture as a small step in the right direction. If the vote goes yes, then that's a pretty decent precedence.

    Let's see what the results show.
     
  19. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,466
    I seem to remember some of "These United States" tried that 150 odd years ago---it didn't go so well.
    After which, the winners began to use the phrase "The United States"
     
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    That was during the rise of the Nation States - the unification of Germany and prefectures into "Japan" made it seem 'natural' that the USA should follow suite. Just as prior to that there were Empires. Those empires lasted for generations, no one could have imagined they'd collapse. But, collapse they did. And before that there was Roma - and likewise it collapsed, the Spanish Empire, Persian Empire, Arab Empire, English Empire and etc.... All go through 7 stages and all collapse. And before that there were the City States and etc.. The only real except to the rule is China - and it's never been the size it is now. And it also goes through the same 7 stages - only somehow they resurrect from the dead a new Empire. This is probably an accident of geographic location as well as there's a hell of a lot of Chinese so they tend to absorb whomever 'conquers' them.

    The USSR collapsed under it's own weight.
    The EU is collapsing under it's own weight.
    The USA is in the process of collapsing under it's own weight.
    I'd say the same for Japan and, again, there's plenty of 'Chinese' who'd love to be their own smaller 'Nation States'.

    The Nation States that are functioning well are small, nimble and able to quickly address the needs of the people who live within them (like the Swiss or the North EU counties everyone wants to point to and say - look, they're making it work). Old, slow, lumbering monstrosities like the USA are bureaucratic cesspits where nothing gets done and things go from bad to worse. Where the Psycho's run the Asylum. Ever listen to some of the dumb-arses that 'run' the USA? These people are dumber than shit on a stick - and smell worse. So, IMO, this will be the case for the USA. Maybe within the next 30-40 years.

    The ONLY time the US Federal government worked well, was when it didn't do much work! As soon as those idiots tried to do "something" for the "Good of Society" they ushered in the Great Depression and WWII and never ending lost wars since. Now that the Federal Government is as Crony-a-crap-hole as one could imagine (which always happens to all nations, see: the Byzantine Empire) the better option is for States to succeed. This may not happen in your lifetime, but, as for as History goes - a few hundred years is a blimp on the time-line. In the end, the USA will collapse down to a manageable size. Particularly as 'free' energy pumped out of the ground gets tight and the population begins to shrink and be replaced. Which is happening as we speak (a good example of this is AU where 80% of the population will be economic immigrants by 2050 with no 'allegiance' to AU per say).

    It's just the way things go. Scotland is, again, way ahead of the curve here. But, maybe now's not the time? Let's see what another three or four decades bring. I'd speculate that most Nation States will not exist in 120 years. At least not in their current forms.


    I'm glad Scotland is taking the vote - and, in many ways, I hope it goes NO. Sometimes it's best to take one step back to get the energy to make a full two steps forward.
     
  21. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    Except almost all of that is fiction. My guess is Scotland stays in the union.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
  22. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    33,264
    Yes it stayed in the Union now when will we hear from them again? The golf tournament?
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Haha... I missed this last week. Still, pretty funny

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    [video=youtube;W6vDzf-wSbk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk[/video]



    A breakdown of the vote found that most people who voted NO did so out of fear (mainly due to the media and political elite scaring the pants off of the elderly/babyboomers and women). And, of those that voted YES - they did so out of hope and optimism about the future, their future. A free future. I find that quite interesting "Hope and Change" is the very LAST thing most people (over 65) want to run up against. Not with all those State-given goodies they promised themselves. Wouldn't want to take a chance losing those State-given goodies. But, of people aged 25 to 34..... around 73% voted Yes to independence.

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    This was also quite interesting, yup, just leading the gullible around by the nose:

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    While a NO vote may seem discouraging for some, I find it very encouraging. Far far fewer "Americans" supported the Revolutionary War (at least when push came to shove). So, 45% is a stellar outcome. And, once the Baby's die off, another vote will be taken, and at that time, the likely outcome will be peaceful succession. Not now though. For now, we need a few more decades of the New Economy to really grind the point home, a few more decades of Central Planners and their Central Bankers' debacles, a few more phony Wars to lose in the ME (maybe Asia too) - then maybe the time will be ripe for real change.
    Not now.
    Now there's simply too many Baby's and together with women (they also tended to vote No, probably for similar reasons) there will be no independence, for anyone.

    As an aside, had the vote been working age men, fathers, husbands - then Scotland would be, today, an independence country.
    That's something to ponder over your next pint of Ale I suppose.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014

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