What happened to the job killing Obamacare?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by joepistole, Jul 5, 2014.

  1. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Well we are a half year into the Job Killing Obamacare and there is still no evidence of the Republican promised death panels or of the promised job killing which would surely result from the passage of Obamacare. So my question to you Republican fanatics who promised Armageddon if Obamacare passed, where are the death panels? Where is the job killing? Where is the promised depression? Last month almost 3ook jobs were created.


    ‘The Labor Picture in June

    The Labor Department reported that employers added 288,000 jobs in June and the unemployment rate fell 0.2 percentage points to 6.1 percent.

    In an important turnabout, there were encouraging gains not just in well-paid white-collar professions, or in low-wage sectors like retail and restaurants, but also in the vast middle tier of jobs that enable workers to gain a foothold in the middle class. For example, manufacturers hired 16,000 workers, while transportation companies added 17,000 employees and the long-dormant public sector saw an addition of 26,000 positions.

    “It’s definitely a strong report,” said Guy Berger, United States economist at RBS. “There really aren’t that many clouds.” http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/04/business/jobs-data-for-june-released-by-labor-department.html

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...d-not-say-obamacare-will-kill-2-million-jobs/

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/econo...2/07/the-cbo-did-not-say-obamacare-kills-jobs
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2014
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    They'll Get Back to You When They Kill Enough Jobs to Blame on Obama

    I think the answer is, "Stay tuned, they're still tryin' their hardest!"
     
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  5. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    I'd much rather have insurance executives, corporate lawyers and other highly privileged people sitting on my death panels, thank you very much. Gawrd bless Amurrica!
     
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  7. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Heh, it pains me how much say insurance companies have in the treatment of patients... my wife isn't able to get the one anti-depressant that TRULY helped without making her feel drugged (Pristiq) because her insurance company feels that Effexor should be "good enough" for her... despite the fact that her doctor has said, multiple times, that the Effexor WASN'T WORKING.

    *headdesk*
     
  8. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    Indeed they are. They have been trying to kill jobs for a very long time.
     
  9. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    The big job killer will be the employer mandate that is supposed to take effect in 2015. The President is trying to change his own law without congressional approval so he can delay this provision, to hide the job killing, to after the elections. The Congress is suing the President over this change because they don't want him to get away with a magic trick, designed to fool his base into thinking all is well, until after the election. The base does not have the power of reason, but depend on feeling, so if you take away the smoking gun, they will won't know better.

    Business, unlike government, can't just print more money to fix a problem of cost overruns. They have only so much in a competitive environment where margins are small. If you add a huge cost for compliance, which reduces the value of the benefits, you have cut in other ways or the business may fail. Like in surgery sometimes you may need to chop off a leg to save the rest of the body. If the body dies, unemployment gets even worse.

    The unions and other liberal supporting business have applied for and received exemptions to the 2015 law, because they know this is going to be bad and they wish to be sheltered. Do you think all exemption to the law should be repealed since the law, in your mind, is working fine?
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    Well if that is the provision of the law you are resting your hopes upon, you will be sorely disappointed. This portion of the law only affects 3.5% of businesses and less than 1% of the workforce. And Obamacare provides generous tax credits to small businesses to make healthcare affordable to small businesses, just as it does in the individual healthcare markets. The business exchanges open in November of this year. So the time draws near, republicans won’t be able to use this excuse on the clueless much longer.

    http://www.irs.gov/uac/Small-Business-Health-Care-Tax-Credit:-Questions-and-Answers
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...ma-over-health-care-law-s-mandate-waiver.html
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...uge-health-care-subsidy-everyone-is-ignoring/

    Additionally, congress isn’t suing the POTUS. Republicans in the House of Representatives are suing President Obama. And the House of Representatives is currently controlled by Republicans. The republican law suit is a political tactic. It isn’t a serious law suit. Unless the republican court system wants to breach more than 200 years of juris prudence again, the republican law suit is completely without merit. IRS Administrative Code 7805A clearly gives the administrative branch (i.e. the POTUS) the right to delay and wave fines. This isn’t controversial, it has never been controversial. Georgie Bush was the last president to use it to implement Medicare Part D.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/7805

    http://columbialawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/barron-rakoff.pdf


    And then there is the small matter of legal standing for the House of Representatives. In order to prosecute a law suit in federal court, one needs legal standing and the House of Representatives doesn’t have it. One the House has not been harmed. And per The Judiciary Act of 1789, the attorney general is responsible for representing the federal government in all legal matters – not some partisan idiot appointed by republicans in The House of Representatives. It's more than a little odd that republicans in the House are suing President Obama for doing what they wanted him to do, delaying the implemention (i.e not penalizing businesses) of Obamacare. Republicans shut down the government last year in an attempt to get Obama to delay the implementation of Obamacare. So it is more than a little odd that they are suing the president for doing what they wanted him to do just a few months ago. This law suit is more drama for the Republican drama queens...the right wing consumers of republican entertainment like Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.

    Well congress doesn’t just print money to fix problems. It can’t. Congress has delegated the authority to create money to The Federal Reserve. And if you had done your homework and if you were not the victim of deception, you would know the employer tax subsidies in Obamacare offset employee healthcare costs for small businesses. And if you were as unbiased as you like to pretend you are, you would know the exemption for “unions and liberal supporting businesses” is a myth originated by that bastion of “Fair and Balanced” Fox News.

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     It, like the many other things you believe, simply isn’t true.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-dont-have-comply-obamacare-says-crossroads-/

    http://keller.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/more-myths-of-obamacare/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

    I hate to tell you yet again Wellwisher, it is you, the "untrickable" guy, who have been tricked yet again.

    Now where are the dead bodies Republican Representative Michelle Bachman promised? Where are the death panels, she and Republican Governor Sarah Palin promised? Where are the long lines and rationed healthcare republicans promised?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
  11. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    In the VA, where socialized medicine is already fully implemented.
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    What does the VA have to with Obamacare? Nothing, absoutely nothing, and Obamacare isn't socialized medicine by any stretch of the imagination.

    Republicans were not talking about the VA when they made the death panel and job killing and rationing complaints, they very clearly talking specifically about Obamacare.

    A half year into the program and no death panels. The jobs numbers are better than they have been in a decade. And there is no rationing, and no long lines.A recent survey found something like 75% of republicans like their Obamacare.

    The chickens are coming home to roost my friend.

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    Limbaugh and company warned once implemented, people would like Obamacare.
     
  13. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    3,515
    Socialized medicine is a term used to describe and discuss systems of universal health care—that is, medical and hospital care for all at a nominal cost by means of government regulation of health care and subsidies derived from taxation. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialized_medicine

    Both are equally socialized medicine. It is just a difference of the degree to which the government funds and manages. A difference that Obama has a strong record of wanting diminish. Hence the VA.

    Remember, Obamacare has not yet reached full implementation, so you seem to be counting your chickens before they hatch.
     
  14. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    Nice selective editing there, it is a pejorative term used by right wing nuts. And the fact remains you are conflating two separate healthcare programs, the VA healthcare system and Obamacare. The two are in no way similar. Obamacare provides affordable access to healthcare to individuals, and all individuals, if state government implement Medicaid Expansion. Whereas the VA Healthcare System, provides direct healthcare to veterans from government run healthcare clinics and hospitals at no cost or nominal cost to the veteran. Obamacare provides no healthcare direct or indirect; it only allows affordable access to existing private healthcare systems.

    And the issue here is Obamacare, not the VA Healthcare System. Republicans like Congresswoman Bachman and Republican Governor and Vice Presidential Candidate Sarah Palin, said Obamacare (NOT THE VA) would cause the deaths of children, women and seniors. They and others promised death panels were an integral part of Obamacare. They promised long lines and rationed healthcare. Republicans said the economy would crash and we would be in a deep and long depression. Republicans said Obamacare is a job killer. All of it has been proven false. Where are the job losses? Where are the dead bodies? Where is the depression? Where are the long lines? Where is the rationed healthcare? Government was supposed to be in the physician’s office dictating individual care. The only place that has happened is in republican controlled states where republican controlled legislatures have mandated unnecessary medical procedures on women seeking abortions. It has nothing to do with democrats or Obamacare.

    Delusion and ignorance is all too common with folks of your particular ideology. As I have previously written, under the VA Healthcare System the government builds, owns and operates the veteran healthcare facilities, and once veterans are in the system veterans like the care they get. The problem is getting into the VA Healthcare System. The VA directly employs physicians and other healthcare and administrative personnel at those facilities. It is 100% government funded and 100% directly operated by the government. Obamacare merely allows individuals to access to affordable healthcare. It isn't the same thing. Obamacare doesn’t operate healthcare facilities. Obamacare doesn’t own healthcare facilities nor operate them as it does with the Veterans Administration Healthcare System. It merely regulates the healthcare system as it did before Obamacare and it subsidizes premium payments of low income individuals. Granted, there is more regulation now. But government has regulated our healthcare industry for almost a century. Federal and state governments have been subsidizing healthcare for individuals for almost two centuries (e.g. Medicare, Medicaid, Disproportionate Care, state & county hospitals, etc.) and it has been providing socialized healthcare to veterans since the dawn of the nation. Most states and some counties have operated government run hospitals for more than a century. I live in a solid red state, and even here we have a state hospital and some county run hospitals. Our state hospital was created in 1872 when cowboys roamed the range. Obamacare doesn't create or run hospitals as I said before. It just allows individuals access to affordable health insurance. It is very difficult to see how Obamacare is any more "socialized" that the healthcare systems which preceded it.

    Further neither Obamacare or the VA Healthcare System are "universal healthcare" systems. The VA Healthcare System is limited to US military veterans and it doesn't cover all veterans. I am a veteran, and I don't qualify for veterans healthcare benefits. Obamacare applies to those who do not have insurance, and it doesn't make healthcare affordable for individuals living in states that have refused to accept the federally funded Medicaid expansion. There are still millions in this country who remain uninsured because republicans governors and legislatures have refused Medicaid expansion. And Obamacare only affords opportunity to get healthcare insurance if individuals buy and maintain that insurance. It isn't blanket universal insurance as it is in other countries with advanced economies, like Canada, United Kingdom, France, Norway, Sweden, etc.

    I think you are placing a lot of hope on the remaining 1% of individuals not covered under Obamacare. It is difficult to see how 1% more is going to cause the catastrophes predicted by republicans for six years now.

    So again, where the catastrophes republicans have prophesized? This is your worst fear, republicans who have Obamacare like it, nearly 75% of republicans who have Obamacare like it.

    “Republicans who signed up for Obamacare this year are liking their new insurance coverage, according to a new survey.

    A poll of Obamacare enrollees published Thursday by the Commonwealth Fund found that 74 percent of newly insured Republicans are happy with the plans they bought. Overall, 77 percent of people who had insurance prior to the rollout of the Affordable Care Act said they are pleased with the new coverage they obtained in the last year.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/10/republicans-health-insurance_n_5574079.html

    I’d say republicans have a credibility problem.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  15. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Really? Quoting the very first sentence, which was the most concise definition of the term, is somehow selective? "Socialized medicine" IS a pejorative term. Is that some sort of surprise to anyone? You seem to only bring it up the obvious as an excuse to make "right wing nuts" ad hominems. Typical leftist tactics. Insult in lieu of reasoned argument.

    Both the VA and Obamacare are universal health care systems, no matter how you may wish to quibble over the semantics of a pejorative term. And the term "socialized medicine" is apt for both. Obamacare plans are both mandated and their coverage determined by the government, as opposed to the individual, which is a basic premise of socialism.

    But I see you have drank the liberal kool-aid, so this is largely pointless. And you are naive if you think implementation is all about the number covered.

    And I cannot find any sources for those statistics on Republican satisfaction.
     
  16. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    LOL, you don't have to look very far. I gave the source in my last post. You just have to click on the link and read. Can you do that?

    You my friend are obfuscating. Apparently you cannot handle the truth. The VA healthcare system isn't Obamacare. They are not the same. The claims made by republicans were made against Obamacare not the VA...one of them damn minor details again.

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    Truth and reason are not liberal conspiracies. They are just truth and reason. Yeah, truth and reason can be a bitch for you folks who live in an alternate reality.

    And before you accuse others of drinking the Kool-aid I sugest you look into your own cup first. The bottomline here is republicans have a credibility problem with independents and those within the party who may be able to think for themselves.

    Runaway,runaway, cover your ears and scream all you want, but it will not change reality. All the obfuscation in the world will not change the facts. Everything republicans have said about Obamacare has been proven to be wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    It should be noted that Obama unilaterally decided** (last July) to delay Obamacare's employer mandate from 2014 until next year: 2015. And in 2015? Maybe again to 2016?

    Forbes: Obamacare May Be Causing A Shift To Part-Time Workers In Illinois


    ObamaCare Employer Mandate: A List Of Cuts To Work Hours, Jobs

    [table="width: 500"]
    [tr]
    [td]State[/td]
    [td]Employer[/td]
    [td]Public/Private[/td]
    [td]Action[/td]
    [td]Date[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Alabama[/td]
    [td]Walker County[/td]
    [td]Public[/td]
    [td]Cut hours for part-time and seasonal workers from a maximum of 32 to 29 per week[/td]
    [td]June-2014[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Michigan[/td]
    [td]Elkton-Pigeon-Bay Port Laker Schools[/td]
    [td]Public[/td]
    [td]Cut hours of paraprofessionals from 38.75 per week to a maximum of 29[/td]
    [td]April-2014[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Indiana[/td]
    [td]South Madison Community Schools[/td]
    [td]Public[/td]
    [td]Cut hours for part-time employees to fewer than 30 per week to avoid an estimated $1.2 million in insurance costs[/td]
    [td]February-2014[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Florida[/td]
    [td]Miami-Dade County Public Schools[/td]
    [td]Public[/td]
    [td]Cut hours of all part-time workers to a maximum of 25 per week[/td]
    [td]December-2013[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Virginia[/td]
    [td]Frederick County[/td]
    [td]Public[/td]
    [td]Reduced hours of part-time employees to fewer than 30 per week[/td]
    [td]June-2014[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Mississippi[/td]
    [td]Mississippi State University[/td]
    [td]Public[/td]
    [td]Capped hours for non-benefits-eligible employees, including student workers, at 28 per week[/td]
    [td]March-2014[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Wisconsin[/td]
    [td]Burger King franchisee[/td]
    [td]Private[/td]
    [td]Cutting part-time schedules to fewer than 30 per week[/td]
    [td]December-2013[/td]
    [/tr]

    [/table]


    This list goes on for pages and pages, I just plucked a few examples out. Obviously the public institutions are coming up often as they have to report to the public their operations. One can only imagine in terms of the overall state of private businesses. This of course is FANTASTIC news for Democrats. Just think of all the poor they've created. Poor pathetic Amoorikkkans totally dependent on the metastasizing cancerous parasite for their very survival.


    Temp Agency: Obamacare Is Causing Businesses to Hire Part-Time, Not Full-Time, Employees



    ** WaPo. Obama's Employer-mandate delay was probably and unconstitutional administrative action contrary to statutory language in the ACA, the reporting requirements for employers were delayed by one year.



    Yup, just keep voting. That's your role. Pull the magic lever to the Right or Left. Then waddle back into your place on the paddock within your State / Tax Pen.
    Pull and Waddle.
    Pull and Waddle.
    That's what your role is: Tax Chattel / Citizen.
    How pathetic, to think this nation was founded on LIMITED government - and now we have the largest government in the history of humanity. And,k Amoorikkkans begging it to grow bigger! To spy on them, to regulate them - moar and moar. To think this nation fought a Revolutionary War over a pathetic Stamp Duty and now PRIVATE workers must pay a 'transaction' tax to the State, in the State's own 'sanctioned' Fiat paper. Pay your Political Masters / Tax Farmers just for the privilege of working - or go live in a rape-cage. Yes, we've climbed to the heights of "Civilization" where your children are born into a hyper-regulated Tax Pen, stamped a Citizenship, and already own hundreds of thousands of dollars in "public" debts for largess wasted and long forgotten generations ago. To think the US Constitution enshrines freedom of association and here we are - having to pay the State (and it's associate private organizations) for their "Licenses" - just to conduct trade with one another.
    Why?
    Because Amoorikkkans are pathetic.
    Pathetic, weak, sniveling Tax Chattel. Too dumb to question their "Regulators" and too scared of what their Political "Servants" may do to them and their family if they did. Hell, with one in five Government Schooled Amoorikkans graduating functionally illiterate - they'd hardly know any better anyway. What do they need to know? Love of State and how to execute their Public Function as State Certified cannon-fodder. Do their "Patriotic Duty" killing women and children in other "States" with their own Tax Farmers. Fighting (and losing wars) never ending wars over phony made up reasons. All while chanting for More Tax and Less Privacy! For More Regulations and Less Civil Liberty!

    The Iraq War is for Peace!
    Free-Trade is Slavery!
    Common Core is Strength
    !


    Life on the Farm.
    In our Tax-Pen.
    With our Citizenship Stamp.
    Life in our hyper-regulated Progressive Social Paradise, aka: Amoorikkka.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  18. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Anedoctal claims by republican partisans isnt convincing given their record, and given The Bureau of Labor Statistics says otherwise and given only 1% of the labor force is affected. And the number of partime workers has been falling (Bureau of Labor Statistics).
     
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    A list of over 400 public institutions cutting their part-time staff to under 30 hours is called "data" Joe. Not an anecdotal claim. See, one piece of evidence, a single data point - that's anecdotal. It may or may not be meaningful. For example, a single white swan, does not tell you that all swan are white. A million million million swan, do not tell you that all swan are white. It will tell you that millions of swan are white. However, a single black swan, will tell you that not all swan are white. Oh, and data is independent of political ideology. 400+ companies and public institutions purposely CUTTING their part-time staff work load to less than the State's magic number it pulled out of it's collective incompetent arse, of 30 hours, is evidence that many organizations (public and private) are reducing part-time staff numbers to avoid ObamaCaresless.

    Oh, and June saw the largest jump in part-time employment since 1993. But, I'm sure that's all part of our Central Banks', Central Plan, to "fix" the economy it destroyed. What? It's only been a decade, I'm sure things will be 'fixed' in another 30 years or so.

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  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Thank the GODS we have millions and millions and millions and billions and trillions of lines of "Regulations" keeping Amoorikkkans safe from one another. And from bothering to open up a business and trade with one another. No No No, can't have that. We're too functionally illiterate. Yes, thank the GODS we have a Nanny State ensuring the only jobs anyone can find are poorly paid part-time work at chain-stores and fast food restaurants.


    Enjoy the FDA approved HFCS fortified GMO pink slime:

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    Oh, yes, thank the Gods we have the State looking out for our best interests. I mean, when it's not making up phony wars to murder women and children, polluting the planet with radioactive uranium dust or wasting through the earth's limited energy reserves. Yeah, when the State's not doing that it's ensuring our Centrally Planned Economy of Tax Chattel is producing the part-time low skilled jobs required for it's 1 in 5 functionally, Government Schooled graduating, illiterate idiot.

    Right or Left!
    Pull the magic lever suckers.
     
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    From TIME:

    LOL... they're coming right out and telling you to your face. Either the State shills and paid propagandist don't care anymore, or figure you're too functionally illiterate to bother reading anyway, but either way - they're literally shitting right on top of your face. I suppose after totally lying about WMD and carrying water for the NSA spying, they just figured the sky's the limit and obviously you DO NEED a Nanny.

    They (Government and it's mouth-peace) are your Nanny.
    You (the Tax Chattel) are their Children.

    And they do it/propaganda, all for "The Kids".....

    Welcome to Amooorikkka land of the Hyper-Regulated part-time Tax Chattel man-children.


    They seem to get it pretty clearly, the question is, why haven't you? OHHHH that's right.
    Left, waddle waddle.
    Right, waddle waddle.
    Left, waddle waddle.
    Right, waddle waddle.
    Left, waddle waddle.
    Right, waddle waddle.
    Left, waddle waddle.
    Right, waddle waddle.
    Left, waddle waddle.
    Right, waddle waddle.
    Left, waddle waddle.
    Right, waddle waddle.
    Left, waddle waddle.
    Right, waddle waddle.
    Left, waddle waddle.
    Right, waddle waddle.

    ..
    ...
    ....
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    You are off topic and trolling Michael.
     
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910

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