Depression and Assisted Suicide.

We awoke this morning, to a controversy.

Dr Philip Nitschke, a euthanasia advocate who heads an organisation called Exit International which handles queries about suicides for the elderly and terminally ill, has apparently provided advice to a 45 year old man, Nigel Brayley, suffering from depression and suicidal, after his wife's murder in 2011, who went on to kill himself using an illegally imported euthanasia drug, Nembutal. He is survived by his current wife. The death of his first wife, Lina Brayley, was deemed suspicious and the police were still investigating her death, under the belief that she had been murdered. This follows the disappearance of a previous girlfriend in 2007, who is still missing:

THE widow of Perth man Nigel Brayley has accused the police of “harassing” her in their attempts to investigate Mr Brayley for the suspected murder of his former wife, Lina.

And Yari Permata Sari said her husband of 13 months “would never hurt anybody”.

Mr Brayley’s deceased wife, Lina Suria Brayley was found dead at the bottom of a 43m-high cliff in a Perth Hills quarry on February 27, 2011.

Her death originally was considered an accident, but last year police said they were treating it as suspected murder.

Ms Sari says her husband was taken into custody at that time, and had never got over the shock of waking up and seeing Perth’s media corps camped outside his house.

She said she believed Lina’s death was a tragic accident.

“It was an accident,” she said. “And I do believe that.”

She said Mr Brayley frequently spoke to her about Lina, and her pictures were still on display in their house.

“I know he loved her, he loved her probably right up to the day he died,” she said. “He would never hurt anybody.”

Mr Brayley married Indonesian-born Lina in 2007, two years after his previous live-in girlfriend vanished while he was working as Dili Airport manager. She is still missing.

The Australian Federal Police have travelled to Dili, at the request of WA Police, to investigate that disappearance.​

Nigel Brayley killed himself in May of this year, after illegally importing the euthanasia drug, Nembutal. And here lies the issue of this particular case.


Nigel Brayley had communicated with Dr Nitschke quite extensively and had attended a workshop by Exit International and had also met and spoken to Dr Nitschke at this workshop. He had also joined the organisation and become a member.

He was identified by Dr Nitschke as being depressed and suicidal. He had also advised Dr Nitschke that he intended to commit suicide. Dr Nitschke also knew and was aware that Mr Brayley was not terminally ill or 'ill', with the exception of his depression and suicidal thoughts. Now, if you are depressed and your doctor knows this, or you visit a health care professional or meet with one and they become aware that you are depressed and suicidal, they will refer you to adequate help and counseling. Even hospitalisation in some instances. This is a basic standard of care in Australia. Not so with Mr Brayley and his ongoing communication and meeting with Dr Nitschke. Dr Nitschke appears to have provided Mr Brayley with advice on how to commit suicide.

This is what Dr Nitschke had to say about Mr Brayley's suicide:

"If a 45-year-old comes to a rational decision to end his life, researches it in the way he does, meticulously, and decides that ... now is the time I wish to end my life, they should be supported. And we did support him in that," he said.

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In the weeks before his death he told Dr Nitschke that he planned to take his own life.

"We had a lot of communication with Nigel, he'd been in touch with us for a while, he'd joined the organisation," Dr Nitschke said.

"When I went over to Perth he came along to the workshop, I had a talk to him.

"He was younger than the usual age, we have the usual age of 50. He came at a younger age, I think he was 45."

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Dr Nitschke says it was not his job to do that, and says Mr Brayley was of sound mind when he made the decision to die.

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"If a person comes along and says to me that they've made a rational decision to end their life in two weeks, I don't go along and say 'Oh have you made a rational decision? Do you think you better think about it? Why don't you go off and have a counsellor come along and talk to you?'' he said.

"We don't do that.

"If a person is so depressed that they have lost capacity, then they can't articulate anything," he added.

"The fact that he was so insightful in his decision to make this choice indicates to me that he was indeed a person who had not lost capacity.

"I'm not saying he wasn't depressed but was he so depressed that we should constrain him? Should we have certified him, should we have put him into a psychiatric institution, should we have restricted him in some way?"

Dr Nitschke said Mr Brayley was "not at that level" and "people like that should not have their freedom curtailed".

"I would object to that idea, you are saying he's depressed therefore we shouldn't talk to him. Everyone is depressed at times, and at this time this person fit that criteria."
​

It needs to be said, that I am a firm supporter of euthanasia and I do believe it should be legal, because no person nearing the end of their life, either by age or illness, should have that decision to die with dignity stripped from them. I think it is the ultimate cruelty to force someone who is in pain, etc, to continue to live their last few days with even more pain and zero dignity. I've faced what could lead one to make such a decision and for me, it was absolute. I would not want to be forced to live in pain and without dignity in those last moments.

However this case... This case just seems wrong, for a variety of reasons.

Depression is treatable. It is not a terminal illness. Depression can make you see, think and believe things in a way that is, at its very core, soul shattering. What is down is now up and up now down. Everything becomes hard and impossible. I'm living it right now. But my doctor referred me to a therapist. I, like the many many others suffering from it, am getting help. In short, he treated it and me, without any loss of my dignity. At no time did he suggest or refer to ways in which I could kill myself, nor was that ever suggested as a solution or encouraged as a solution.

Dr Nitschke actively saw it as a solution to Mr Brayley's depression and spoke to him about it as a solution, as an exit. So much so that he failed to provide medical help to someone who clearly needed it, nor did he even refer him to a counselor. At the very least, his state of mind should raised a few eyebrows. Make that more than a few. Someone who is depressed is not going to be of sound mind to make this kind of decision.

The reaction was one of anger and disgust.

Beyond Blue spokesman, former Premier Jeff Kennett was appalled. Beyond Blue is an organisation that helps people with depression. Mr and Mrs O'Neal, friends of Mr Brayley were equally angry and disgusted.

But Mr O'Neil believes Dr Nitschke's organisation has moved into uncharted territory.

"I think most people would assume [Exit International's] role is quite clearly for people who are terminally ill, suffering, reaching the end of their life," he said.

"Not for people who are going through a down period in their life, everyone goes through a down period in their life."

Beyond Blue chairman Jeff Kennett said Mr Brayley was not a euthanasia candidate.

"I was appalled. My concept of euthanasia does not extend to helping and giving advice to a 45-year-old guy who clearly did not have a terminal illness," he said.

"I just think the way Dr Nitschke expressed himself – that he didn't see it as his responsibility to do that – to be absolutely abhorrent."

Mr Kennett, who also posted a series of comments on Twitter, said Dr Nitschke's assertion that it was not his duty to intervene was misguided.

"I have never heard so much rubbish in all my life," he said.

"He's a medical officer and I don't accept that argument at all. To have healthy bodies walking around saying, 'I want out' – I can understand that.

"What I can't understand is a medical professional actually supporting them to go out ... to leave us."
​

Earlier this year, a 25 year old man killed himself after accessing Dr Nitschke's book on suicide, aimed at the over 50's and terminally ill. Joe Waterman was a happy and stable man, his family never saw a sign of his depression. Unbeknownst to them, he had ticked the 'I am over 50' box on Exit International's website and had obtained the booklet. Mr Waterman's mother is devastated and angry. Dr Nitschke was also angry at the dead man's deceit:

Joe Waterman was 25 when he took his own life in January this year.

Like Mr Brayley, he had illegally imported the euthanasia drug Nembutal.

Last year, for reasons his family could never fathom, the formerly fun-loving young man suddenly changed.

His mother Mary Waterman has since discovered that her son, who had ordered Dr Nitschke's euthanasia handbook, wrote about being depressed on his iPad.

"I was angry, quite angry that [the book] was just so easy for him to access," she said.

Mr Waterman was granted that access after simply ticking a box to confirm he was over the age of 50, a move that Dr Nitschke says was out of his control.

"Well he's obviously a liar because straight away the book is not made available to people unless they're 50 years of age or [there are] special circumstances," Dr Nitschke said.

"So I guess if he wants to tell us those lies and accesses the book and then misuses it, then I guess we can't always be able to protect against that."

Ms Waterman believes ticking a box is not an adequate measure to restrict access to the book.

"Joe was a liar but of course you're going to lie if you want to get something, if you're suicidal and you want to get something that's going to help you die peacefully."

"It's still unbelievable and it's been nearly six months," she said. "It's like a bad dream really, I still find it really hard to imagine life without him."​

While I deplore Dr Nitschke's language at the relatives and loved ones of Joe Waterman, he is correct. His site operates on good faith. It was outside of his control that someone lied and was able to access and obtain his handbook.

However Joe Waterman's case is vastly different to that of Nigel Brayley. And this is where he contradicts himself in a way. Mr Waterman was obviously as depressed as Mr Brayley. I am left to wonder if he would have given the same advice to Joe Waterman as he gave to Nigel Brayley. Or is his hanger solely that he ticked the box when he was not in fact 50 or terminally ill?

I am not comfortable with euthanasia being used in this way. I am not comfortable that he is now using his brand and his organisation to give advice to people suffering from depression, on how to commit suicide. While it is possible Mr Brayley saw this as a way out because of the issues surrounding his wife's death and the possible feeling that he would be accused of it and his girlfriend's disappearance, euthanasia is not supposed to provide an out for things like this. There are so many things wrong with this case..

We are yet to see if Dr Nitschke is going to be investigated by the AMA or any other medical body in Western Australia for his role in Mr Brayler's suicide. I do, however, hope there is an investigation. At the very least, I don't think any doctor should be telling someone who is depressed of the best way to commit suicide. Or maybe it is just me. I don't know. But this case stinks to me. I get the whole 'it's my life and my body'. I really do get that. But this? This just feels wrong.

 

But it doesn't fit in this instance.

Imagine going to your doctor, telling them that you are really depressed and have contemplated suicide. Would your doctor say to you 'okay, well it's you're body and your life and here's how you should go about it'? Mine wouldn't. I honestly do not know of any doctor who would help a depressed but physically healthy person to kill themselves.

This guy didn't drink a bunch of sleeping pills or anti-depressants. His speaking to someone about his suicidal thoughts and depression, a doctor no less, resulted in his being advised on how to kill himself. What should have been a clear call that help was needed, that this guy needed treatment, counseling and help, resulted in his being instructed on how to best kill himself.

It may be a 'it's my life and my body' issue, but there are laws. For example, a teenager may say I want to get a full body tattoo. After all, it's his life and his body, but no tattoo artist who operates legally would do it without parental consent. Is someone who is that depressed able to make such a call? Someone who is terminally ill, will have an idea of what they want, possibly would have even thought about such a decision before they even found out they were ill. They would know what they would want for themselves. It's something most of us have thought about at some point in our lives. You know, the whole, what would I do in such a situation? This guy, by all accounts, decided to kill himself because he was sad and depressed. Was he of sound mind to have made such a decision? Of course he's thought about it. He's suicidal. That is what suicidal people think about. They think about it because they are depressed and mentally ill. It just seems like such an abuse to not have gotten him the help he clearly needed.

He never even referred him to a counselor, to gauge his state of mind before providing him with the help he gave him. Instead, he was counseled on how to kill himself, because he was depressed and hurting as a result of that depression.

I'm sorry, but what?

The excuse that 'well, he spoke clearly and he clearly knew what he wanted'.... My 7 year old can clearly tell me he wants to slug a bottle of scotch and inform me that he knows what he wants and is clear about it. Does not mean I would say 'sure son, here you go'. While Mr Brayley is not a 7 year old, he was clearly depressed and suicidal because of his depression. Dr Nitschke knew this and had identified him as such. That should have been the first warning light blinding his eyeballs.. In other words, it was clear that Mr Brayley was of no sound mind to have made such a decision in the first place. And it absolutely flies in the face of euthanasia and of what euthanasia advocates have been pushing for. There are meant to be safeguards in place.

Well meant to be..

The Netherlands and countries like Belgium are also struggling with this question and some are euthanising patients with severe and chronic depression and dementia and the mentally ill upon their request.

In one highly publicized example last year, the clinic helped a 63-year-old man with severe psychiatric problems to end his life. After a very active career working for government, the patient in question could not face his upcoming retirement. In an interview with the Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad the clinic’s psychiatrist, Gerty Casteelen said the man “managed to convince me that it was impossible for him to go on. He was all alone in the world. He’d never had a partner. He did have family but he was not in touch with them. It was almost like he’d never developed as a person. He felt like he didn’t have the right to live. His self-hatred was all consuming.”

The man’s long-term physicians had rejected his request previously. But the clinic’s team evaluated him, read his medical history and decided it was time to close his case— permanently.

Clinic Director Pleiter thinks giving psychiatric patients a chance at assisted suicide is important. “We are dealing with a group of patients that have no other place to go, that are also being ignored by psychiatry,” he said. “We are looking at their requests seriously, we treat them in all fairness. I believe it was a deliberate choice for the lawmakers to offer space legally, to which both patients with physical as well as psychological problems can turn.”

But where does one draw the line? Because these patients are not physically ill, the evaluations of independent psychiatrists are under scrutiny. Does this mean any person suffering from serious depression can shop around until he or she finds someone willing to help with suicide? And euthanasia is not only for old people. How young can you be and still get legal help if you want to die? How far should society go to overcome the biologically inbuilt threshold that makes it hard to take one’s own life by aiding someone to do so?

The controversy surrounding the Life-Ending Clinic’s activities has caused the Dutch press to look at some of the other cases from recent years. In one particularly disturbing case a 35-year-old woman, the youngest to die since the Dutch law was introduced, got help killing herself in 2012. Excerpts of her file were published by Dutch national newspaper Trouw and read like a sad story of clinical depression. But the file also shows an extended period of hopefulness. Not enough apparently. A team of doctors decided there was no cause to wait, and ended her life.​

Mr Brayley had happily remarried. He had friends and family who cared for his welfare. He was not alone. He had a support network there. He had something to live for. Well perhaps except for the murder investigation into his ex-wife's death and the disappearance of his girlfriend back in 2007... And I wonder if this sudden interest in those two possible crimes had anything to do with his depression. But he was depressed. His family and friends knew he was depressed. But they were shocked and disgusted that a doctor was helping him to kill himself instead of referring him to counseling and help. No questions about whether if he was sure, no questions as to why. Well he knew why, he knew it was being driven by his depressed state. And that was apparently enough.

Okay, maybe I don't understand the 'it's my body and my life' argument.. Not in this case. Because the very person who should have helped him and provided him with care, instead just told him how he could kill himself and what drugs to use. I get it for people who are nearing that end of life scenario due to terminal illness or injury. But depression? What?

I'll put it this way. If you see a guy about to jump off a building because he's sad and depressed... Would you try to help him come down safely, call for help for him? Or would you tell him that if he goes to the higher building next door, then his death can be guaranteed? And that is essentially what this doctor did. Pretty much told him of which way was the best way to kill himself. You know, to make sure it's final.

This is such an ugly and awful slippery slope. And where does it end? And it isn't one that a quick and simple answer can be provided.. At the very least, Dr Nitschke should have referred him to a therapist, gotten him the help he obviously needed and to make sure he was of sound mind to be even contemplating such a decision.

I am a firm supporter of euthanasia, but this? This is just completely and utterly fucked. Because I don't see someone who is that depressed as being of sound mind to be making such a decision. If they were, then the many many doctors, police officers, paramedics, therapists, regular people who risk their own lives to stop people from jumping off bridges, buildings, slashing their own wrists, hanging themselves, etc, should simply not bother. And I doubt anyone would agree.

So yeah, the question is if you see someone about to kill themselves because they were depressed and sad, would you suggest the best way they should go about it? Or try and stop them or get them medical help? Maybe you're right. Perhaps I don't get the 'it's my body and my life' argument. But this and cases like it just seem to be totally fucked, for lack of all better terms.

 

Yes. But the success rate of these treatments is not inspiring. The patients can easily end up being simply doped into the delusion that everything is OK.

It's not easy for someone like me--a fourth-generation Euro-American raised in an intact family, with an excellent education, a series of interesting and lucrative jobs, good health, good friends, lots of fun hobbies, and the worst things that have ever happened to me were a broken heart, being fired ("made redundant") and the death of a beloved pet--to understand just how miserable it's possible for a human being to be, and just how long one can endure that misery before making a rational decision that it's unlikely to become a whole lot better.

You've had a lot more pain and sorrow in your life than I have, so I'm surprised that you can't understand these people better. What if any of those pains or any of that sorrow could not be reasonably expected to abate? How strong, how dedicated to your family, do you have to be in order to keep getting up every morning and facing the same intolerable crap that you faced yesterday and every day before, going back for as long as you can remember?

At what point do you make a fully rational decision that you can't take it any more, you don't deserve it, and the people you will leave behind are not so selfish as to want you to continue living this way in order to fill a role in their lives?

Maybe you've never been terminally depressed; I certainly haven't. But I've known several people who were. One's been dealing with it for the entire ten years I've known her and it continues to get steadily worse. Last time I talked to her she could barely speak. And yes, I've tried to help her but the "interpersonal synapses" have been shut down since long before I met her, and I just can't get through. She's spent plenty of money on psychiatrists, and they can't get through either. And yes, the roots of the depression go back to childhood, it isn't just an emotional malfunction that can be repaired with love, drugs, therapy and a new job.

We're all prepared for the day we find out that she has ended her life. Not one of us can suggest a promising alternative.

And that is not an uplifting thought! If you're dying of cancer, you can stiff-upper-lip it for a few months, or even a couple of years, attempting to achieve closure with your family and friends, and steadily taking stronger doses of drugs that dull the pain and improve what's left of your spirits--and give you the IQ of a wallaby.

But if you're depressed, there is no end in sight. You can take those same drugs, but you end up being a slightly-sentient vegetable that makes your friends and family wince and cry every time they see you, to the point that they no longer want to see you.

Fortunately we don't have to rely on the prescription-medications that require the approval and collaboration of a physician. In the last few years there has been considerable coverage in the American press of methods for suicide that require little or no assistance--depending on how mobile you are. They use materials that are cheap and readily available, and raise no suspicions when purchased.

The helium balloon method was perfected about five years ago. Replacement of the oxygen in your blood with helium does not cause a sense of panic, and the method allows you to change your mind until, literally, the very last moment of consciousness.

The only down-side is that if someone finds you while your heart is still beating and revives you, you may have serious brain damage and be a vegetable. But that's a risk in many suicide scenarios. Some are worse: if you do an incompetent job of hanging yourself, the drop may exert too much force on your neck, and your family will come home to find your body lying in one corner of the room... and your head in the other. Fill your garage with auto exhaust, and your children come home to discover that not only is Daddy gone, but their beloved dog--the one family member who would have unselfishly helped them through their sorrow--was sleeping in a dark corner and now he's dead too.

Lately, nitrogen has been suggested as a replacement for the helium. In a small percentage of patients, helium in the blood can cause pain. Our air is full of nitrogen so it has no negative effects. In addition, a nitrogen tank can be refilled if it's been in the closet for a year; a helium tank must be discarded and replaced.

This leaves the decision and the responsibility entirely up to the patient--and of course any friends or family he chooses to share his thoughts with.

The U.S. courts have already ruled that if you help someone set this up but then leave him alone to decide whether or not to open the valve, you cannot be prosecuted.

 

The medication is a temporary measure.

Like the case of the woman in her mid 40's who was euthanised because she felt depressed. Her history shows periods of depression and periods of normalcy.

In the case of Nigel Brayley, Dr Nitschke never even referred him to a counselor to see what was going on. It would literally be like my walking into a doctor's office and saying 'hey, look, I'm depressed and have thought about killing myself, any thoughts on how to go about it?' and having the doctor instruct me on which drugs to use, where to order it from, etc. No referral to a therapist or counselor. Nothing at all. No suggestion that perhaps he should speak to someone about how he feels and why he wants to kill himself. No speaking to his loved ones, his wife and his friends and family. No discussion of a possible treatment plan. Just a few emails, phone calls, one face to face meeting and that was that.

My mother lost her sister, nephew, sister-inlaw and her brother in the space of 3 months. Her brother and sister-in-law were unexpected. The year before that, she had lost another sister. And the year before that, she lost a brother unexpectedly and very suddenly and a month after that, had to rush interstate when her other sister had a massive sudden heart attack and she got there just hours before her sister passed away. Not to mention my illness and the stress and depression that her only child could very well die. The shock of her brother's passing last year was so great, she had a massive heart attack. She very nearly died. A day after her brother passed away and while she was in the intensive coronary care ward, hooked up to all of these machines, her blood pressure was low, she was very ill and she told the doctor that she just wanted to go. Her doctor did not say 'okay' and tell her what she needed to do. My mother is still battling depression. So am I. I watched her nearly die with my very eyes. She had that heart attack right in front of me. To be honest with you, I've been battling it since my illness. And it comes and goes. There are light moments and then something happens and you are dropped into the darkness of absolute despair. And it doesn't look like there is a way out. Now, when I tell my doctor about this, that I can't see a way out, he doesn't advise me on how to obtain the good euthanasia drugs. He gets me help. He talks to me. Not about offing myself, but about the hard road to find that spec of light and why it's worth it. He treats me. He reminds me of why it's worth living, my kids, my family and friends. Mr Brayley was not alone. He had a loving wife and family and friends.

That's the thing. I do understand them too well. And I cannot for the life of me understand how or why this particular doctor thought that he had no way out but to kill himself.

When there clearly was.

During those bad moments, when the depression is so bad that you want to kill yourself that you go and see a doctor to tell them that you want to kill yourself, I would say that you are not overly rational and the doctor speaking to you should have recognised that his desire to die was solely because of his depression.

He was exceptionally vulnerable. In the worst possible place you can imagine being mentally. And he advises him on how to do it without even referring him to counseling? In countries where euthanasia is legal in Europe, patients wishing to die have to speak to several doctors and counselors, so that what they are choosing is made clear to them. This guy sent a few emails, a few phone calls and one meeting and they okay it because he was depressed but could speak clearly and say what he wanted clearly?

There is no evidence that he was terminally depressed.

Which is not the case in this instance.

His wife declared that his depression started when they started to question him about his former wife's murder and then the disappearance of his girlfriend in Indonesia.

Say you are a doctor, just as an example. And someone walks into your office and asks you to tell them how they can kill themselves with dignity because they are depressed and pretty down and they want to die. Would you refer them? Or would you assume that because the individual spoke so clearly and well that they obviously know what they want and simply explain it to them?

Nigel Brayley was never offered counseling by Dr Nitschke. It was not suggested to him. Why? Because he was articulate about what he wanted. Because that is all it takes. There was no therapist who determined his depressed state and how bad it was. Nothing of that sort. Just a few emails and a meeting where the doctor recognised that he was obviously depressed but because he was articulate, then helped him.

And that to me is just so wrong. So so wrong.

He was vulnerable.

You know, when someone who is depressed and suicidal tells someone they want to kill themselves, it's a cry for help.

In some cases, sure. In other cases? No.

People who are terminally ill or at the end of their lives and who wish to die with dignity often tell their loved ones.

The only person he told was a doctor, gave him the date and everything. Told him when. And that he was doing it because he was sad and depressed. He was not given or offered any other option. And that's the issue in this case. The only option he saw was death and the only person he confided this to, a doctor, agreed with him. He was never ever offered another option. He was never offered treatment for his depression. Just death. And that is a scary road to consider.

Which does not really apply here.

 

I can't seem to get you to understand that for some people these are not moments. It's constant, unremitting, they've never found a way to make it go away, and it's getting steadily worse. That's where my friend is.

That is a cliché. Sometimes these people really want to die.

Depends on the family. Some people simply cannot muster the respect required to let a loved one do what he needs to do. And others start preaching religious bullshit: you must not kill yourself because it's a sin. It's God's plan for you to suffer. Don't piss him off or we might have another 30,000-foot flood!

You are far more familiar with this incident because it occurred in your country. I'm perfectly happy to concede that in this particular case, it's possible that the patient should have gotten better counseling.

But I hope you understand that in other cases the patient should be allowed to do what he says he wants to do.

And I think we'll all agree that there are a lot of people who really ought to kill themselves, but don't.

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Would you recommend ways for her to kill herself? Would you recommend suicide to her as a form of treatment?

Well yes, they are suicidal.

And in this instance, he kept it quiet. I'll touch on the why in a bit..

He didn't always want to do it.

EUTHANASIA campaigner Philip Nitschke denies he went too far in helping a fit and healthy but depressed man end his life.

Perth man Nigel Brayley, 45, died in May after taking euthanasia drug Nembutal, because he feared he would be charged with his wife’s murder.

His former wife Lina, 37, died in February 2011 after she fell from the top of Statham’s Quarry in the Perth Hills while taking photographs.

Her death was initially believed to be an accident, but, after Mr Brayley died, it was revealed he was being investigated for his alleged involvement in her death.

Dr Nitschke said in a statement on Thursday that Mr Brayley had attended an Exit International workshop in Perth in February and purchased the banned Peaceful Pill eHandbook.

He said it was “a clear case of rational suicide”.

“While Exit may not condone his reasons for taking this step, we fully support his right to be able to exercise this option.” Dr Nitschke defended his handling of the matter.

“I support his right to have access to that information and ultimately those drugs,” Dr Nitschke said on Fairfax radio on Friday.

“It looks as though he did it to prevent a worsening situation which he detailed in the email he sent to me. He was looking at significant financial loss, he was looking at some dreadful outcome but didn’t explain why.

“In retrospect, it looks as though he was fearful of a long period of incarceration.

“A person that’s confronting that sort of dire circumstance, can well, I would argue, make a clear rational decision that death might be the preferred option.
​

So depression from fear of losing his money and fear of being investigated for his wife's murder and his former girlfriend's disappearance.

 

No, she doesn't need it. She keeps up with the news and knows about the helium balloon. She worked in a hospital for many years and still has contacts. If she wants to off herself she'll have plenty of chemicals to choose from.

No. I'll continue to give her advice about how to make her life more pleasant, and she'll continue to not take it.

If your prisons are anything like ours, that's enough to make anybody prefer death.

... as I said above. I'd certainly rather die than go to prison for any extended period of time.

That's a big deal. There are a lot of people who are simply not strong enough to withstand it.

 

No, but perhaps before they're allowed to run for public office.

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More seriously, it's been argued that people should have to pass some minimal standards of competence, responsibility and sanity before being allowed to have children. If we could apply the same standards to becoming parents naturally as we apply to people who attempt to adopt a child, the world would probably be a better place.

Thank you! Here in the Washington DC region, it's become fashionable to commit suicide by jumping in front of a subway train. These assholes have absolutely no idea what that experience will do to the poor train driver! They see that face in their dreams every night. Some of them genuinely can never go back to work. It's one thing to take your own life, but you have no right to completely ruin somebody else's.

Thank you. This is their rationale for criminalizing the use of drugs that only cause harm to a tiny percentage of the people who use them. Religion does far more harm to civilization than drugs. Why don't they criminalize that?

There are no absolutes in life... including this one of course. One person's death will almost always have an impact on quite a few other people. Especially that person's family! Especially if that person is their sole source of income and support!

So I can understand the rationale behind trying to stop someone from killing himself--even stopping him forcibly. I have no doubt that there are situations in which this is the right thing to do--the lesser of two evils, as it were. But this must not extend to doing it in every instance for every person.

 

I hope you meant "infraction." The Moderator staff may be tough, but I don't think we have ever caused a member to have a heart attack.

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Update

I had meant to post this earlier, however I have been busy with some real life issues.. Anywho..

Dr Philip Nitschke has been suspended by the Australian Medical Board for his helping a non-terminally ill depressed man who was facing a possible murder investigations for his ex-wife's death (and possibly for the disappearance of his ex-girlfriend in Indonesia years prior).

The board last night used its emergency powers to suspend Dr Nitschke after ruling that he posed “a serious risk to the health and safety of the public’’.

A spokeswoman for the board has confirmed that the suspension, which prevents Dr Nitschke from practice anywhere in Australia, is an interim measure pending the outcome of an inquiry.​

I find it difficult to disagree with the suspension. Dr Nitschke, it should be noted, was very quick to sell out Nigel Brayley and accused him of being a "serial wife killer", while trying to absolve himself of all responsibility for guiding him in his subsequent suicide.

CAITLYN GRIBBIN: Philip Nitschke says his suspension won't have any effect on his advocacy work with Exit International, and in today's press conference, he launched an extraordinary attack on the man he spoke to about dying.

PHILIP NITSCHKE: The Medical Board's attempt to pin their decision on my brief involvement with serial wife killer Nigel Brayley lacks any evidential basis. And to suggest that my passing acquaintance with Brayley implies a doctor-patient relationship and an implied duty of care makes mockery of good medical practice.

CAITLYN GRIBBIN: At the time of his suicide, Nigel Brayley was facing ongoing questions about the death of his wife. Two other female friends of his had also died.
​

In denying he had any duty of care towards Brayley, who had written to him and attended a seminar he held in Perth, where he admitted to speaking to Brayley one on one, about suicide and where he admitted to advising him of how to go about it medically, even after Brayley told him he was not terminally ill but depressed, Dr Nitschke was absolutely without remorse in painting Nigel Brayley as a serial wife killer, perhaps in the hope of swaying public opinion that he had helped a man who murdered his wives from dying, thereby removing a blight from society. Who knows, but his attacks and his refusal to admit that as a doctor, he had a duty of care towards someone who sought him out and told him he was depressed and wanted to kill himself, a duty of care that would have entailed his suggesting Brayley seek counseling, instead of telling him what he should take, how much and where to get it from, did not get him far at all. Public opinion is somewhat divided. Which is to be expected.

However this does open up another can of worms in so far as where and when doctor/client privilege begin and where does duty of care begin for medical practitioners. That being said, Nigel Brayley had sought him out and communicated with him about what he felt and his needs as one would to a doctor and Nitschke responded as a medical professional in the advice he gave Brayley. In that sense, there was a clear doctor/client relationship, which is why the Medical Board suspended him.

Personally, I can't fault this suspension and his behaviour in painting Nigel Brayley as a serial wife killer in the hope of painting himself in a positive light is somewhat disgusting.