God may be a liar

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Fancy Bear 79, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Fancy Bear 79 Registered Member

    Messages:
    1
    This thread is for the believers here. Assuming God is the source of religion:

    Considering all the different religions out there, which all seem to have truths and non-truths spread throughout their respective teachings, isn't it very possible that God is being deceptive. Perhaps truth isn't the objective of religious texts. As humans we value truth, and we assume that God would value truth on an even greater scale. But what if the opposite is true? What if God values hiding the truth, and instead perpetuates a false reality. That does make sense. If God created the world from nothing, then the underlying reality is.... nothing. Humanity was created from nothing. Everything is a lie. Everything is made up. Reality is an illusion.

    My point is this. I've noticed people choosing a certain religion after realizing that there is some truth in a certain scripture. This "choosing of sides" seems to me to be intended by a higher power... to create division among us. It adds drama to the human story. Without drama, what do we have? There's no story without good drama. God just may be the ultimate storyteller.

    We shouldn't assume that God is telling the truth.
     
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  3. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    3,740
    Indeed. In fact, we should assume that he lies and as scriptures say, test all things.

    Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
    1Kings 22:23

    Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
    2 Chron 18:22

    Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
    Jer 4:10

    O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

    And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
    Ezekiel 14:9

    For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
    Thessalonians 2:11

    To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.

    We should also remember that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the key to all truths and God definitely did not want A & E to touch it and when they did and began to know truth, God murdered then by neglect and forcibly keeping them from what would save them. The tree of live.

    He is a liar and a murderer in my book.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,635
    Which God is that? The God of Abraham? The Holy Trinity? Allah? Yaweh? Elohim? Yeshua? Shiva? Gaia?

    Before you can profess belief in (or opposition to) any God you have to define what you're talking about.
     
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  7. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    3,740
    Webster has a definition.
    Mine closes definition is cosmic consciousness from natural evolutionary birth.

    No fantasy miracles and magic required.
    There is no supernatural from MPOV.

    Faith without facts is for fools.

    Regards
    DL
     
  8. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,060
    What you think god is up there waiting for you to want something so he can prove to you he exists, while the whole universe is out there. Why would god need to justify his existence to any of you.

    You people obsessed with him proving, have no need for answers so why do you obsess with trying to rubbish this subject.

    Plenty of people out there have felt validated throughout history, just because you do not. If you do not believe thats your problem not his.

    No amount of stuff would prove god to you types of people, so why do you care anyway?
     
  9. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

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    3,740
    I am not one of "you people".

    I care because for good people to do nothing allows the evils of religions to grow.

    It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists as well as those who do not believe. They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief or not. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic are evil.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1

    They also do much harm to their own.

    African witches and Jesus
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

    Jesus Camp 1of 9
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48b_1185215493

    Death to Gays.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related

    For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
    Fight them when you can my friend. It is your duty to our fellow man.

    ----------------------------

    I do not try to justify the Godhead I know.

    I do try to justify my dislike of the religions on offer and especially the regressive Abrahamic cults.

    Regards
    DL
     
  10. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    Who / what is the Godhead you know ?

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    BTW, the quote you're probably thinking of was from one Edmund Bourke ..

    All that is neccessary for the truimph of evil is that good men do nothing

    .. an Irish statesman / politician / philosopher in the 1700's, very conservative and very religious - a devout Anglican IIRC, though his parents were devout Catholics, and his father a preist.
     
  11. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,740
    Exactly that. Thanks.

    Here is my short anecdotal story.

    The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
    I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
    I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

    “Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

    This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.
    This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

    During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

    I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
    This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

    The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

    I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

    I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

    I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

    My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

    My process was analogous to what this gentleman shows.

    [video=youtube;FdSVl_HOo8Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y[/video]


    Regards
    DL
     
  12. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    No problem. I wanted to clarify that because it is probably the most misquoted and corrupted quotes in the English language and does no justice to that great man, Edmund Bourke.

    1) What was / caused your apotheosis ?

    2) . Blake ? He was a devout and pious Christian .. and a Catholic no less. Look ..

    Jerusalem
    And did those feet in ancient time
    Walk upon England's mountains green?
    And was the holy Lamb of God
    On England's pleasant pastures seen?

    And did the Countenance Divine
    Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
    And was Jerusalem builded here
    Among these dark Satanic mills?

    Bring me my bow of burning gold:
    Bring me my arrows of desire:
    Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!
    Bring me my chariot of fire.

    I will not cease from mental fight,
    Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
    Till we have built Jerusalem
    In England's green and pleasant land.

    http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/jerusalem/

    Interesting that you take his words to support your religious view - it happens all the time though.

    If by OT you mean the Old Testament, I don't visit it much - it's a strange place, or rather, should I say, it requires too much time than I can give it.

    I wouldn't be too quick to characterise Christians (or Gnostic Christians for that matter) with such a broad brush though. As well as the sheep, there are plenty who are deeply insightful and tend towards the 'cosmic consciousness' aspect (referred to later).

    You have to understand that anyone can take something out of the Bible (or any other place) and use it to serve their purposes . I believe the New Testament to be an enormously deep, philosophical work. Men will, however, take it piecemeal as they see fit.

    At the risk of boring you, let me give you another piece of poetry - one of the most powerful and revealing ever, IMO. It is from Samuel Taylor Coleridge - another devout Christian (and of 'The Rime Of The Ancient Mariner' fame). The following lines are from a very long poem of his called 'Religious Musings' ..

    Toy-bewitched,
    Made blind by lusts, disherited of soul,
    No common centre Man, no common sire
    Knoweth ! A sordid solitary thing,
    Mid countless brethren with a lonely heart
    Through courts and cities the smooth savage roams
    Feeling himself, his own low self the whole;
    When he by sacred sympathy might make
    The whole one Self ! Self, that no alien knows !
    Self, far diffused as Fancy's wing can travel !
    Self, spreading still ! Oblivious of its own,
    Yet all of all possessing ! This is Faith !
    This the Messiah's destined victory !

    http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/reli...ry-poem-written-on-the-christmas-eve-of-1794/

    Have you ever heard a more powerful and apt description of cosmic consciousness ? I haven't. I must admit, I had my own 'apotheosis' when I read that through a few times.

    The Hebrew word 'Messiah' is interesting. What’s a 'messiah' ? It means 'the anointed one', i.e., anointed with oils - and who was anointed with oils ? The enlightened ones ! In them days, if you reached enlightenment, you were anointed with oils, scents, etc. Even in the Greek, 'Christ' (Kristos) means exactly the same thing - anointed with oils - having reached enlightenment.

    So, we've dithered over Messiah and Christ for two millennia, and all that that great work of philosophy and revelation is telling us, is that both words are synonymous with ENLIGTMENT !

    Here is another apotheosis for you (most people reading this would dismiss it as religious piffle) ..

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

    (The word 'faith', incidentally, is, in my opinion, perhaps the most corrupted in the English language so far as religion is concerned, and when analysed in the original New Testament Greek, reveals something diametrically opposed to what we think today - but we can leave THAT one for another time).


    God is real ? God is not real ? We can struggle with these questions for another 10 years and would get no closer to a resolution UNLESS we agreed on what we mean by God. Indeed, it is my contention that most arguments about any matter would cease, if folk, step by step, agreed with what they meant in their use of key words such as this one.

    I DO NOT believe in a 'God-up-there-on-a-throne' kinda guy
    I DO NOT believe in an individual personality kinda God, meting out punishment and reward - each of our actions is it's own punishment or reward.
    I DO believe that either the whole universe is conscious or none of it is, and since some of it is, then at different levels, phases and scales, all of it is. It is the ultimate vanity IMO, to assume we are intelligence from non-intelligence, and that intelligence ceases to exist where ceases our ability to perceive it further. This intelligence, this cosmic consciousness, IS GOD. And it is also us.

    The GODS 'R US, my friend.

    Once you get a little further along your path of cosmic consciousness (I am not as vain or presumptuous to say higher) you may realise that all that is, IS that cosmic consciousness manifesting itself in it's infinite variety of ways, and who is you or I to decide ? Things rise and fall. All things flow and tend to their opposite. If you had perfect conditions, you would not know it, for you would have no contrasting imperfection. If you had no evil, you would know no good.

    I agree with this.

    I'm not too sure about this. It is quite presumptuous IMO. All life forms would think such a thing, within their ambit, whilst mostly oblivious of other dominions. Think about this for a while before formulating a response or decision.

    I rarely watch linked U Tubes but I did this one, and am glad I did. I liked it a great deal, particularly about the powerful messages of transcendental consciousness within the New Testament.

    In closing, here's a couple of lines of Wordsworth's;

    Thus the enduring and the transient
    Both serve to exalt ..


    Cheers !
     
  13. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    Its far more tenable to suggest that truth is multi-faceted and seemingly contradictory truths are reconcilable on a higher level of understanding.

    I say "far more tenable" since this general principle is valid when anyone encounters any "high end" claim about reality (eg : wave particle duality, etc etc)

    If ... Everything is a lie. Everything is made up. Reality is an illusion.... you have no basis for talking about what is and isn't real/false.
    :shrug:

    Given that we have plenty of experience of division outside of religious circles (and arguably of a more dramatic level), it appears that this apparent contradictory nature between faiths is not required in the slightest.

    IOW the fight for survival characterized by the pursuits of sleeping, eating, mating and defending provide ample material to prevent writers block ever afflicting historians (or even biologists for that matter, since even the animal kingdom outside of the human species also abides by identical catalysts for division and conflict)

    But all this aside, how does our (religious) "division" secure a benefit for god?


    If you want to give some merit to this idea of yours, you need to explain what advantage god secures by apparently hiding the truth (or alternatively, explain why the normal initiatives for engaging in deception - namely personal gain - aren't applicable in the case of god).

    At the moment, the only compelling point there is for suggesting god hides the truth is that it is a prime requisite for your argument that god hides the truth
    :shrug:
     
  14. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,740
    Lakon

    "Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being."

    You replied -----
    I'm not too sure about this.

    Who would you offer as another candidate?


    "1) What was / caused your apotheosis ?"

    A strong desire to know the truth of things for my own ego's sake.

    I was chastised for it by being told to think more demographically.

    Regards
    DL
     
  15. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,740
    It is biblical. Allow me to put this in your conversation.

    He wanted A & E to remain as bright as bricks.

    And

    Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
    1Kings 22:23

    Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
    2 Chron 18:22

    Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
    Jer 4:10

    O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

    And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
    Ezekiel 14:9

    For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
    Thessalonians 2:11

    To me, God’s worse lie was to Adam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then reneged and in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.


    Regards
    DL
     
  16. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,523
    Engaging thread, is it not?
    Mr. Greatest I Am, or Mr.DL, after reading this thread in its entirety, I am left with numerous questions;
    1. You post as "Greatest I Am", but sign off as "DL" - is "DL" a shortened form of "Greatest I Am" ? If not, what is "DL" ?
    2. In post #4 you state; "Faith without facts is for fools." - What "facts" are the basis for your "faith" ?
    3. In post #6 you state; "I am not one of "you people"." - What unit/units of what "people" are you ?
    4. In post #6 you also state; "I do not try to justify the Godhead I know." and; "I do try to justify my dislike of the religions on offer and especially the regressive Abrahamic cults." - Who is the "Godhead" you know and if "He" does not come from one "...of the religions on offer...", Where, may I so humbly ask, does "He" come from ? And if you "do not try to justify the Godhead you know", why is it so important to "try to justify your dislike" of what others choose to know ?
    These are only 4 of the questions I have been left with after only enumerating them, up to and including post #6.

    One final query: in post #2, you state; "He is a liar and a murderer in my book." - Are there any other "liar"'s or "murderer"'s in your book?
    Later, dmoe
     
  17. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,740
    Certainly.
    Too long a list to bother with here.

    Regards
    DL
     
  18. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,621
    Well I for one am curious why you choose not to answer the questions posed Greatest I am? Does DL stand for Dalai Lama? My apologies DL I do see where you answered questions, it was all in blue so I missed it.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  19. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,740
    No problem my friend.
    I prefer what you came up with as compare to some literalists and fundamentals who think it stands for Devil Lover.

    In a strange way they were closer to the truth than your guess since I do not like the genocidal son murdering God, I have to lean towards any that hate him including Satan.

    Not that I am foolish enough to think they really exist.

    Regards
    DL
     
  20. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    To offer another candidate would mean I accept the dominion view. I don't think I do.

    You are not pioneering here.
     
  21. Greatest I am Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,740
    Who else do you know is claiming apotheosis?

    Regards
    DL
     
  22. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,523
    Mr.Greatest I am/Mr. DL, first off let me state that I am NOT claiming apotheosis. I do have to say though that since I am not an apotheosis(t), I do not feel like all of my questions were answered.
    DL being your possibly true initials, was the only answer I was sure of.
    You seem to have said that you do not like labels - but branded yourself.
    You seem to have said that you are not one of "You People" - that you are indeed unique, and that everyone is. If everyone is Unique - could that not possibly mean that you would be one of "You (UNIQUE) People"?
    The NON-answer to my question #2, seems like a stock type of Businessman/Politician/Shyster NON-answer - which would seem to immediately revoke your ability to ever, in any way make any valid claim to ANY kind of UNIQUENESS!!
    You seem to claim that "your Apotheosis" only lasted for "5 or 6 seconds" - and in that 5 or 6 seconds you came to realize that you were "Unique".
    Mr. Greatest I Am/Mr. DL, by the time I was 39 years old, I had already met, literally, THOUSANDS of "You (UNIQUE) People". In the decades since my first 39 years, many millions more have manifested themselves on this blue green orbiting marble.
    You claim not to like labels - but do not mind the use of demographics, you claim to not like labels - but yet title yourself "businessman" and "esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian".
    You go on to seem to state that you; "exemplify this quote from William Blake.

    “Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.” "

    By claiming "to exemplify" - is that not unlike a flashing neon label?
    Mr. Greatest I Am/Mr. DL, possibly because I am the dumbest man on earth - I must say that I do not find you unique, however, I do think that you, indeed, exemplify something.
    Thanks for the clarification, dmoe
    I leave with a Quote from you, yourself;
    "It is my social duty to fight ignorance."
     
  23. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    Apotheosis; (from Wordweb, based on Oxford Dictionary)

    1) Model of excellence or perfection of a kind; one having no equal
    2) The elevation of a person as to the status of a god

    You are claiming this.
     

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