Gay Culture (just let me rant, please!)

For those of you that know me, you know I like penis... ok... seriously... I'm gay.

However, as much as I may be attracted to other men, I find myself completely at odds with gay men and "gay culture". I don't care for fashion, cosmetology, pop music, or gay bars. In fact, I despise (with sincere hatred) all of the above. And I never understood the typical gay male behavior (acting flamboyant/feminine). I'm not "proud" to be gay any more than I am proud to be human, white, living, or anything other trait. It's just a part of who I am. Woopeedoo. And maybe that's why I disagree so much with the "gay community". It's been my observation that so many gay men live in their own little gay bubble. They revolve around anything and everything "gay" oriented. Unfortunately, it's also my observation that intellectual pursuits are not among the desire interests.

I was recently talking to a potential date. The guy asked me what I do for work, and I told him (I'm in industrial engineering). He asked me what I went to school for (Mechanical Engineering). Then he asked me what I do for fun (read, write, study physics and world religions, work on cars, go camping, etc). He seemed rather shocked and bored all at the same time. I asked him, all at once, the same questions he asked me. His response was "Well, I am in school for fashion. I work at American Eagle which I love. I'd work there every day for the rest of my life. And for fun, I like drinking, hanging out with friends, hitting up the Grove (the local "gay" area), and going to concerts." Of course, I was rather turned off by the rest, but the concert part momentarily piqued my interest. So, I asked what types of music and concerts he likes. I should have known better, as I could have guessed every artist and type of music before he said it. Why? Because it fits the stereotype of gay men. And of course, it was pop music like Brittany Spears, Madonna, Lady Gaga, and the like.

He then asked what type of music I like. Mine are classical, jazz, and oldies, for the most part. He said, "Wow, you're not a very good gay man".

It kind of caught me off-guard, but I responded, "I don't try to be a gay man. I just try to be myself.... human."

Someone else once said, "Gay Culture’s anti-intellectualism and overemphasis on the material and superficial portrays an intense insecurity I find unappealing and unattractive. Ransoming one’s consciousness to subcultural conformity is merely capitulation to hegemonic control - a tragic and grotesque disfigurement of potential."

I couldn't agree more!

And it's not like I'm new to the "gay scene", or whatever you want to call it. I'm almost 30 years old, and I've been "out" (I hate that term) since I was 16. So, it's not like I'm just getting a bad first impression of gay culture. No, this has been a reoccurring observation for as long as I have ever known or have been around gay men.

Sure, not all of them are like that. I have known a few that are a lot like myself - those that consider themselves intellectuals (learning for the sake of learning), those that don't comform to any significant degree of societal standards or expectations out of the desire to fit in.

But types like myself are few and far between.

And dare I even get into the aspect of sex? Sure... let's go for it.

Again, I'm approaching 30 years of age. I can count the number of partners I've ever had sex with on one hand. This is not because I'm unattractive or couldn't get "it" if I wanted. I'm fairly sure I could. It's because most of my adult life (up until recently) has been spent in relationships. My first ex last two years, the second ex was three years, and the rest were several months each - of course, with 1-2 year breaks in between each partner. But now I've been single for 4 years come January. It is physically and emotionally impossible for me to have sex with someone I don't care for/am not in love with. It just ain't happening.

And here's the sad part. I have only ONCE met a gay man my age or younger that has had sex with the same amount or less than myself. Of the several guys I've talked to or have gone on a date with, and of the ones that disclosed this, I've found that almost all of them have had sex with at least 20-30 other men. Bear in mind, these people I'm referring to around my age or younger.

The level of sexual promiscuity in "gay culture", I find, is disgusting. Here in the city I live in, 1 in 14 gay men are HIV+. And we don't even have the nation’s highest rate, so I know this behavior is not something confined to my surroundings.

So, due to the lack of intellectualism, and the embellishment of the mundane and superficial, I have developed some serious animosity toward "gay culture". And I also have lost most hope of ever finding a potential life-long partner.

I don't really have a specific question for you ,but I would like to hear your thoughts on both what I've written, as well as your opinions on "gay culture".

 

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I wouldn't sweat it. Be true to yourself and let other people accept you (or not) as you are.

As a personal story, I'm a skydiver. Skydivers are supposed to be reckless with more guts than brains. They're supposed to be heavy drinking, drug using, promiscuous adrenalin junkies who live for the thrill of the moment. And indeed you find a lot of that on DZ's; the parties go to all hours of the night, the number of stupid things people do in the air is high and intelligence sometimes seems to be conspicuously absent.

When I started I felt like I didn't fit in. Here I was, an engineer with a degree from MIT, who would rather figure how to do this safely rather than increase my adrenalin level through a series of close calls. I just didn't fit in to the culture at most DZ's and that bugged me; figured I'd never meet a woman in skydiving (they are few and far between as it is) that I'd never have good friends there. I tried for a while to be "just like them" - drank a _lot_ and on occasion went with the crowd rather than heeding my own common sense. It never worked for me.

I started in New York, and eventually moved out to San Diego partly to be where good skydiving was. And I eventually gave up on being just like skydivers. I did my own thing. Built a few harnesses to learn what it was like, became an instructor, wrote articles for Parachutist and Skydiving magazines. I started to get good at bigways. And after a while people just accepted me for what I was, a nerdy guy who liked to skydive.

Now here I am 20 years later and by most measures I've been pretty successful in skydiving. I've set three world records and a host of smaller records, won a few medals at national competitions, and moderate a skydiving website. I've taught perhaps 1500 people how to skydive. More importantly I met my (now) wife skydiving; she's a surgeon who started skydiving around the same time I did. I have a lot of very good friends in the sport, and I'm as much a part of the community at the DZ as anyone. I don't get invited to the "cool" parties but that's fine with me. People still seek me out to see what homebrews I brought up that weekend, and we have fun together.

I guess my point in all of that is - don't try to make yourself 'part of the gay culture' by changing who you are. Accept who you are, and accept who other people are, and by and large that will be returned. And someday you might find that at least in your circle of friends, the 'gay culture' will include people like you because of your long presence there and your reputation as a tolerant, responsible and faithful guy. You might even find more and more people like yourself joining "the culture" following your example.

 

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Dude...that was funny.

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Man...sorry to hear about your troubles. It sucks when you can't just be yourself..and people expect you to be something else.

(singing)

You gotta fight....yeah!
For your right...yeah!
not to be FAAABULOUS!

I've known several gay men that didn't act "gay" at all...I'm sure there's some kinda place where like-minded gay men like you can meet. Sit around and drink a couple of beers, talk about football and carburetors, then go home and fuck. (if you want to)

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Generational? Epochal? Something about transitions.

In the end, it's probably not much comfort, but ....

What you're describing is in no small part symptomatic of the gay community's underground status; the first generation of children born during the most recent arc of the gay rights discussion are coming to age, and they are emerging into a much different atmosphere than, say, my generation, which was coming to age at the beginning of that arc.

For many of my generation, some of the stereotypical behavior is a matter of conditioning. Showtunes, techno, blatant effeminacy—the whole limp-wristed faggot thing—is at least in part symptomatic of the "safe" places young gays found. Anyone in any given subcultural setting develops certain sympathies toward its various facets. To wit, had I grown up in a country and western music town, I would probably have a much greater appreciation of country and western music. As it is, I've lived most of my life in a rock and roll area. Sure, I can go out into the rural parts of the counties and get a country dose, but being from the "Seattle area" has also conditioned me to rock. Jimi Hendrix, Heart, Queensryche, Sanctuary, Soundgarden ... and then there were the more punkish and glam influences, like Mudhoney and Mother Love Bone. I ditched Top 40 in junior high, opting instead for metal and what became alternative.

And though it's not an exact coincidence, I had what seems a fairly unique tour of the closet, from my first secret fantasies to my first knowingly gay fantasies, and on through a muddled bisexuality until the question of the closet no longer mattered in my life. That is to say, it got to the point some years ago where virtually everyone knows, and my "coming out", as such, will be the day I actually settle into a meaningful relationship with another man. Until then, it doesn't really matter.

But, as a result, I never hung out in the showtunes or techno flamboyant culture. My gay age peers who did have a far greater appreciation for musical cinema as a genre; it was actually last night that I finally, for the first time, saw Streisand performing "My Funny Valentine", and I'm pretty sure I was the only guy in the room who (A) had sex with other men, and (B) didn't know the song. I mean, I've long been aware of it, but I'd never actually watched the movie.

So think back a couple decades, when gays were still in a legal closet. Some states outlawed gay sex. Others persecuted their homosexual communities. Young gay men found refuge in places with high queer ratios.

From the time I entered the political arena for gay rights, in the early 1990s, until now, I've seen a tremendous opening of the gay community. I cannot describe it in exact terms, but as acceptance and normalization became more and more apparent in the society at large around me, the diversity of homosexuals also became more apparent. The hairy, granola lesbian stereotype has broken. The jolly, dancing queer-boy stereotype has broken. We should note that, in the culture at large, more rockers, country boys, and rappers are acknowledging their lack of heterosexual purity.

It's a slow, generational process. Even in a liberal town like Seattle, it's not so much a dress code to be gay, but, rather, that some men are afraid to make a pass if they don't see the blazing neon signs saying, "I'm gay!" I have longer hair, wear a leather jacket everywhere I go, and look like a cross between rock and roll and literary cultures. I showed up at a wedding reception last night with my hair pulled back into a tail, wearing my leather jacket over a white banded-collar button-down hanging open over a Peter Gabriel t-shirt, and my favorite jeans, which happen to be a women's cut. Oh, right, and penny loafers without socks. And, as usual, in a gay community environment, with single gay men all around me, nary an inquiry nor even a glance of interest.

I'm accustomed to it. It's not a proactive bigotry on the part of gay men, but, rather, a certain caution. And, to the other, I'm not going to advertise, flaunt, or beg. I mean, of all the showtunes going on last night, I knew two and a half; that is, I could recite the Muppet songs ("Never Before" and "Rainbow Connection") with ease, and follow along to Rick Moranis singing "Grow For Me", from the Little Shop of Horrors soundtrack.

Oh, right, there was also "Christmas", from Tommy.

But what I'm getting at is that the gay culture is in transition. Many of the stereotypical aspects of the culture we might agree are a bit annoying are deeply-rooted behaviors stemming from the culture's time underground.

And it is a puzzling transition. Not every aspect is advancing at the same pace. While it is true there are more flannel-wearing, sludge-listening rockers—or hunters, auto mechanics, and other traditionally heterosexually-associated roles—coming out of the closet, it is far easier to identify an object of affection as gay by stereotypical markers, be it fashion, music, or even the effeminate lisp.

It might be an overstatement to say it's an epochal transition, but I think what you'll find in five years is a greater diversity in the out-and-seeking gay crowd, and in ten years even more. As society in general emerges from a traditional homophobia, gays, also, will emerge from their largely stereotypical self-expressions. A young gay man who is not so limited in his expressive options will likely find a more diverse expression. That is to say, when he can be as comfortable being gay in a dingy, beer-slick club, moshing at a metal show, he will be less likely to identify so specifically with the traditional markers.

Of course, this is only part of the issue, and the one that strikes me most apparently. But there is a reason why Meryl Schenker's photo of Larry Duncan and Randy Shepherd getting their marriage license in Seattle—

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​

—has become a viral sensation on the internet. I mean, come on. To encounter one of them in a country and western bar in Texas, where they moved from several years ago, you wouldn't necessarily think of him as a potential gay mate. Of course, neither would you figure one is a computer programmer, and the other a former psychological nurse. Something about stereotypes.

Normalization, the bogey-monster word that scares social conservatives, is a two-way relationship. As society normalizes its regard for homosexuals, the gay community, as a natural result, will also normalize somewhat.

But we are very early in this transition.

But, frankly, I admit I can't imagine Larry and Randy shaking their booties to Taio Cruz's "Dynomite". Perhaps that is my own failing, but ... yeah, it's very early in this societal transition.
____________________

Notes:

Trujillo, Joshua. "Photo of couple applying for marriage license goes viral". The Big Blog. December 6, 2012. Blog.SeattlePI.com. December 11, 2012. http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblo...ple-applying-for-marriage-license-goes-viral/

 

Dude, I'm heterosexual and I'm completely at odds with our culture. Culture to some extent is just conformity, isn't it?

 

I don't think that what you describe is typical for "gay culture," but, on principle, for all "cultures." The specifics may vary (such as what kind of music a particular culture likes), but the principles of group identity and group conformity are there, whether we're talking about "gay culture" or "American middle class culture" or whichever.

Many people have, for a number of reasons.

 

My attitude is be yourself, and if your gay and you accept it, good for you. I am glad other males do not fancy females too.

Whats amazing in this world of ours, is how females think that every bloke is panting for them.

I personally love it i never once liked females, but at 37 still cannot just live my life in peace and quiet.

If your gay and accept it, and want to be actively gay thats your bag and good for you, just not all gays want to be active, and you should accept that too.

I am glad its more accepting today too, in the west i am sure young people still have things too worry about, but its not as bad as it was.

 

MZ and T are gay... News to me.
Is there not a thing as a butch type?

Gay or not its always hard to find the right mate that "fits". And life is never fair.

As far as gay goes. My brush with gay guys has been like don't hate me. And mostly like described by Mr M. The gay women are like don't disrespect and hate me. And for some reason there are some who try and be macho guy like and others normal or miss princes type.

 

An Update Aside, and Other Notes

An Update Aside

Previously, I noted of Larry Duncan and Randell Shepherd:

To encounter one of them in a country and western bar in Texas, where they moved from several years ago, you wouldn't necessarily think of him as a potential gay mate. Of course, neither would you figure one is a computer programmer, and the other a former psychological nurse. Something about stereotypes.​

I thought it worth noting Meryl Schenker's photo of the happy couple following their marriage, on Sunday, at the First Baptist Church in Seattle:

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Congratulations! That ain't flamboyant. That's style.
(Meryl Schenker via MaddowBlog)

• • •​

Okay, okay, okay. In more germane considerations:

The problem with being swept off one's feet, the proverbial love at first sight, is that it's a lie. Not the idea. I'm sure it happens, and can reasonably convince myself it's not always simple lust.

But here's the thing: Does anyone remember the minor American freakout about the Islamic concept of taqiyya, or dissimulation? It is a code that governs when it is acceptable for a Muslim to speak falsehoods. Most of these make sense, but one anti-Islamic site pointed to a bit having to do with courtship. I never understood the offense of that one.

Think about it: One dresses up nicely, goes out to a club, meets someone, and perhaps they get together. Big deal.

But the thing is that most people don't dress every day as if they're going clubbing.

A more American way of looking at it is that the difference between courtship and marriage is that the day after getting hitched, one's night in shining armor becomes a sweatpants-donning, crotch-scratching, farting couch potato. One's fairy-tale princess might look like hell in the morning.

Falling head over heels in love often means one overlooks faults in the other or ignorance in the self.

To the other, a romantic bond that evolves out of a larger friendship often means one is more familiar with the less glamorous aspects of the other.

This difference can have tremendous implications on the future of the relationship.

Of all my relationships—none of which have ended "well"—the most enduring is still the first, because its bond of friendship developed in a concurrent but separate arc related to circumstances other than youthful physical attraction. Well, that and the last, but we got over most of our differences because we have a daughter, and aren't going to put her through the stresses of perpetually fighting parents. But none of the failed relationships developed out of friendship; they sparked from superficial and sexual attraction, and the result was generally a long arc of disappointment on both sides.

Thus I would echo Fraggle's point.

Additionally—

—I would suggest that, as the societal normalization process continues, it will be easier to determine which of those people are gay without being told straight up, or advertising oneself on the meat market.

In my own life, I think of three occasions, one of which is simply a reference point, but still ....

• When I was in high school, there was a rumor that a young genius was gay and attracted to me. Of course, he would never actually express this, and thus I was able to write the childish physical contact off as late Freudian latency, though the circumstance did spark some lustful fantasies. Still, though, in a Jesuit school, it really was "the love that dare not speak its name", so nothing was ever said, and nobody can say today what was actually going on. Perhaps a missed opportunity, but maybe not.

• In my mid-late twenties, one of my co-workers surrounded himself with gay men, including his two roommates, had a disastrous track record dating women, and never during our acquaintance acknowledged or even suggested that he was gay. Yet it is very much possible; his emotional condition deteriorated, largely out of my view, until one day he randomly showed up at my place, drunk as hell. We smoked some bowls and talked. He went downstairs to get something to drink, slipped on the stairs, joked about it, walked into the kitchen, and passed out in such a manner as to split his forehead open against a corner of the kitchen counter. Despite our efforts to get him medical attention, he refused, and when he was able to travel, excused himself and wandered on his way. I've neither seen nor heard from him since. On the question of his general humanity, that's enough to make me feel badly about my failure to keep contact. But it is very much likely, given all else I know about him, that his misery came from being a closeteer. I don't know; he was physically beautiful and spiritually comfortable to be around. Perhaps I'm making something out of nothing, but it is impossible to not wonder.

• In my early thirties, I fell in lust with a bartender. There is nothing to tell, as I didn't go home with him. But he was handsome, wonderfully soft-spoken, and probably very much accustomed to drunks like me, who insisted on giving him a parting hug in thanks for the fine drink service. What is worth mentioning, here, though, is that immediately after leaving the bar (in Irvine, California), I called a friend of mine in Seattle and told him about it. It's not that people didn't know I had sex with men, but this was the first time I had really acknowledged that it was more than a kink. Even those several years earlier, with my co-worker, I would not have openly admitted the possibility of attraction until the moment of physical union.​

These days, even my mother will occasionally point out an attractive man who might be gay. I admit it's entirely awkward to tell her, "He's married, has a kid," and see her disappointed shrug. But this transition I'm describing, this change in how people look at homosexuality, is progressing at a nearly breathtaking pace. The period between Lord Byron and Stonewall saw the idea of the closet becoming more visible, and also saw the rise of the "Hollywood" gay man. The period between Stonewall and what I describe as the "most recent arc" (ca. 1990-present) is, for me, dominated by the HIV crisis. The most recent arc, however, involves greater public acknowledgment and acceptance of stable homosexual relationships, and it's happening quickly.

Such changing outlooks also change the marketplace dynamic. The sense of urgency, that one must grab onto an opportunity and see where the adventure leads, is lesser now than it was even five years ago. And it will continue to abate until it reaches a par with the "normal" (heterosexual) market.

The sense of limited opportunity—it might be now or never—that drives much of what traditionalists criticize about promiscuity among homosexuals, withers in the sunlight of normalization.

All of my gay sexual experiences have been reckless and ill-advised. It would be nice to give a well-founded relationship a try, but I have absolutely no reason to rush. As I said, I don't like to advertise, flaunt, or beg. So if something comes up, it's at least as likely to emerge from an established friendship as a spontaneous fling. And, on balance, logic suggests the former has the greater chance of success and psychoemotional fulfillment.

And that's probably a good thing. Looking back to the topic post, I can say that I don't mind the lisp so much anymore, and the fashion doesn't bother me specifically. I can even live with musical theatre and cinema. But I'm not going techno. That, like country music and small, yappy dogs, is a deal-breaker.
____________________

Notes:

Conaway, Laura. "Way past wonderful gets more wonderful still". The Maddow Blog. December 11, 2012. MaddowBlog.MSNBC.com. December 12, 2012. http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/12/11/15851768-way-past-wonderful-gets-more-wonderful-still

 

This is a good point...gays run the whole spectrum of behaviour from effeminate to super macho, a la 'Tom of Finland' characters.

In any event, Gays have a distinct advantage in that gay men love the male of the species far more than heterosexual women do.

I made a thread about this a while back.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?107395-Do-Gays-like-Men-more-than-Straight-Women&highlight=

 

On blue oysters, slaves, Willem Dafoe, and Rob Halford (and other notes)

Given that my longer relationships have been with women, I have fathered a daughter, and the dangerous fling aspect of my homosexual encounters, I specifically refuse to identify as "gay" until ... um ... well ... I guess until I find myself a man.

I don't go in for the whole "pansexual" thing because it's too broad. And, well, there's always "ambisexual", but Bloom County wrecked that one before sexual identity ever really occurred to me. If anyone has that particular strip, post it:

"You, sir, are an ambisexual walnut." —Opus​

But as to the whole butch thing ... it's hard to explain. I call them "Blue Oysters", but for those not old enough to get that reference, it's easy enough: Mr. Slave.

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"Oh Jethuth! Jethuth Chritht!"​

There are few things in the world more unsettling than to walk up to a Rob Halford looking dude in chaps and a motorcycle jacket and hear, "Well, hello thailor!"

As with anything, butch is as butch does, but in the end, the problem is that when superficialities don't matter, they often still matter insofar as you don't want them to matter, but they matter because you are annoyed that they are present, and therefore matter. I think of Willem Dafoe in Boondock Saints: "Cuddle? What a fag", or, "Just pour the drink, you fairy fuck!"

Honestly? Boondock Saints was a bad enough film, but it was worth sitting through just to see Dafoe as a gay, tough-guy cop.

 

That picture reminds me of one of the Y.M.C.A singers...

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On a side note. Blue Oyster. Well I went into a bar name Blue Oyster. It was years ago in Germany. And yes it turned out to be a gay bar.

 

Is gay such a thing, in terms of "In Love" which takes sex into account real?

Is gay marriage a thing? What about straight couples with gay happenings?

ARE YOU GAY? Im serious, I will hound you, because I am simply straight man scorned. I get ogled inappropriately, so I pose this for self. If you aren't In Love there, do you have reason to have imagined such greatness? I know about GAY INTERCOURSE, but is GAY IN LOVE? Why are gay guys so gayed out like heyyyy? Why are they so mean? Are you offending your butt hole? Science!

I see most gay men looking, walking, talking, thinking, all sideways. Is society done them, or them, themselves? :shrug:

I know straight, gay is completely different don't mind me asking, are you okay? If you like the d in the mouth, my girl does that, but up the back end?

Man to man, do you want big ole titties in your face right now?

 

I certainly wouldn't change who I am just to "fit in", or to attract a mate. It goes against my nature.

By far the funniest thing I've read in a while.

Have you lost your bloody mind? LOL! Boondock Saints was awesome, in my opinion!

What in hell did I just read? :bugeye:

______

But on a side note to [almost] everyone: I appreciate your input!!!

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Maybe you're one of thos self-loathing gay guys? That's also a stereotype to fit into.

I need one of those super- gay- guys for a best friend. Women bore me to death and straight guys can't be just friends with a woman, not with me anyway.

 

Why is that?

What do women talk about...that you dont want to hear???

 

I'm really starting to worry about kx000.

 

Themselves.