What happens when the same number of people pray for something as pray against it? How does God decide whose prayer to answer? Does the total number of people praying for or against something matter? How about the righteousness of the supplicants? Are positive prayers answered more frequently than negative ones? Does God take the positive ones and Satan the negative? Does the intensity of the praying have any effect on the outcome? Does the length of time one devotes to praying have any effect on the frequency with which one's prayers are answered? Do the words and phrases used in the prayer -- either positive or negative -- have any bearing on the success rate? Does the nature of the thing or things prayed for have any bearing on the prayer's success rate -- either positive or negative prayers? Why or why not?? Source: A Skeptic's Notebook
Well, you're just a typical unbeliever heathen then, aren't you? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If the same number pray for as against something, well, obviously God goes with those who are right. Just ask Jerry Falwell. God is on the side of right and good. The other people will burn in hell. PS: Sorry, I just thought it had to be said. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
What happens when the same number of people pray for something as pray against it? Does the total number of people praying for or against something matter? Does the intensity of the praying have any effect on the outcome? Does the length of time one devotes to praying have any effect on the frequency with which one's prayers are answered think of it as a tug of war. the stronger and more motivated side wins Do the words and phrases used in the prayer -- either positive or negative -- have any bearing on the success rate? sure. some words and phrases can have more significance to the utterer and thus provides a greater focus Does the nature of the thing or things prayed for have any bearing on the prayer's success rate -- either positive or negative prayers? nope. defining the nature of things in this instance is almost certainly going to be a subjective decision and as such, irrelevant no comment on god and satan
I think that it doesn't matter if you know/think you are praying or not... God is listening anyway. So when something like Mt.St.Helens begins or your plane starts into a nose dive most people's first thoughts are along the lines of "Oh! Shit!" and "We're fucked!" ... and that's what happens. ~Raithere
We can test this ofcourse. Let us all pray Muscleman's caps lock quits functioning when the caps are off. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
God listens to both... but the question is far too hypothetical to even begin discussing seriously. I'm sure God isn't stupid.
Prayer is talking to God: asking, praising, and listening - one to one and very personal. Since simply asking God something sincerely is a confession of dependence, it is also an act of belief. God listens, like a father, and always gives an answer. Keep in mind that giving an answer is not the same thing as doing something. You can't manipulate or coerce God to action. God usually answers in life, i.e. you live as child, and he acts as a father. You live as an orphan; and you have no father. Remember it's not prayer as such that 'works', but God who works. Keep in mind that you're talking to a living being, not customer service. There are references in the Bible where God changed his mind after being asked, so it is not a oneway conversation where He has decided beforehand. But if you ask something not believing God can answer, you aren't talking to the right god Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! *edit* I found this, it might help for a start: http://www.openbibleministries.com/07whatpray.html Other than that, the book "Too busy not to pray" by Bill Hybels is excellent.
Question Jenyar - Did you read the article from the Skeptics Notebook or did you only read the part that I posted?
PRAY, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -The Devil's Dictionary
I'm a charismatic Christian. Where I come from, we are taught that prayers should be supercharged. Meaning, a memorial prayer is more likely to be answered than a weak no-effort prayer. We learn this in the Bible. A prayer supplied with additional efforts (pledge, fasting, etc.) becomes a memorial prayer before God and that person is blessed. Naturally, if something that we asked is against God's will, God will disallow it and give no result to that prayer. REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE PRAYING FOR/AGAINST IT. Frankly, to me, praying is "to come to an agreement with God's plans or to seek God for the best outcome." Most people pray that God will bring result to their prayer without first seeking His will-- but the desire of their own hearts -- and at risk of saying "God let your will be changed." When Mary received revelation that she was pregnant, she said, "Behold, I am the Lord's maidservant." In other words, she said, "God let your will be done." One man's prayer could be answered even though hundreds are praying against it, because the Lord's favour could be upon him or God is just saying, "I have a plan." Numbers doesn't matter. Sometimes.
Well, I doubt this is going to be a popular answer, but here's my opinon... Prayer is more or less the same thing as casting spells. It is the force of thought, affecting and changing and mutating the energies that flow throughout the universe. The essence of prayer and spellwork is the same. For it to be effective, you must have a clear request in your mind, and you must drum up the proper amount of effort to program your will upon the energies, using symbology that makes sense to you. For some of us the symbol is a certain herb or moon-phase, for some of us the symbol could be Jesus. The words you speak and the thoughts you frame as you pray are what shapes the spell/prayer to your intentions. Your "amen" or "so mote it be" is what seals the deal and sends the energy to do your work for you. God may or may not get involved in the spell/prayer, depending upon how you ask it. Christians probably always ask God to guide the prayer, many Witches and Wiccans will also ask the appropriate Gods to watch over the spell/prayer, to ensure the Witch doesn't accidentally cause harm with their spell/prayer. In that way, the Witch voluntarily gives the authority over to the divine. We don't have to give that authority over, but we must keep in mind that if we keep the authority, we also get to keep the consequences. (karma) So for the original question, I would say that God could be a lot less involved than you might think, depending upon the wording and conceptualization going on behind the prayer. The victorious side will be the one that has the firmest grasp of what they want, and the best visualization to back it up. Satan/the Devil, is in my opinion, not a real being, but an energy construct of human beings. This means that I believe in the ironic idea that if we'd just stop feeding energy to this construct, in the form of fear and prayer, it would cease to exist. I believe in the power of thought/prayer/magick, and I believe it is a lot more pervasive and powerful than most folks realize, even those that practice magic themselves. I believe many people work powerful magic every day without ever realizing it. It's not a bad thing, unless you abuse it, just like anything else. Why do I believe Satan is a construct? Because I don't believe anything purely evil or purely good can occur in the natural world on its own. The Gods and Goddesses I believe in are not pure good nor pure evil, they are free from such artificial distinctions. One man's evil is another man's good, so how can a God be good or evil when it's all a matter of perception? Like rain, for example. It pours rain, and ruins someone's wedding. And at the same time, it's watering someone's crops. Is the rain good, or bad? Depends upon the perspective - in truth, it is neither. It simply IS. That's how I see the Gods.
Many prayers have real positive effects; in a similar way that religion as a whole can have a positive effect. If someone has problems and issues and need to share their concerns or needs help, then simply expressing those concerns and believing that something powerful is listening and might help creates measurable positive psychological feedback, e.g. the person feels better because they think their problems are being partly off-loaded or shared and that they do not have to feel alone with their problems. This genuine positive feedback is used by many as a testimony that there is a god since they feel better after praying. All they have done is miss-assigned the cause of the effect, yet the effect is real. Similar and stronger effects occur when praying in groups when a sense of camaraderie takes place. You can feel the same after a good party of course. If people would understand that such personal psychological benefits are self-induced and then exploit the mechanism to the full then the advantages and effects can be easily magnified. I have practiced a meditation technique now for nearly 30 years. There are real benefits from stress reduction, higher energy levels, and a resultant positive and optimistic outlook on everything. My complaint about religion in general and praying is that people are being misled as to the cause of their beneficial feelings when they could be achieving a great deal more from a proper understanding of human physiology and psychological factors. Religion and prayer remain based on superstition and ignorance and fantasies about a fictitious supernatural realm. There is also the interesting paradox that God is meant to answer all prayers. If an equal number of people pray for as against, then how could ‘it’ satisfy both demands? Cris
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! cupric the truth is is always unpopular and feared nicely done! thank you
Maybe. Depends. The big "if". And other less-than-helpful stuff. The anti-Dossey diatribe at Skeptic's Notebook was quite amusing. Distant healing is an intriguing phenomenon. • IoNS Release, 14 December, 1998 • Dr. Elisabeth Targ's article for Noetic Sciences Review #49 For instance, the first thing that must happen scientifically is that an effect must be observed. One study, at least, has found a statistical correlation, but there is as yet no definitively-observed effect of prayer for healing ("distant healing") that can be regularly quantified. Nonetheless, that effect must be established before the nature of the effect can be explored. It will be an interesting ride. But as to the topic: Here I would assert that the error at hand is a simple one: the presumption of God. Don't worry, it's a mistake most people make. Many of the New Age movement hoped that quantum mechanics would reveal the inner workings of old magicks and legendary sorceries. Alas, this is not yet the case. Nonetheless, many of the pagan-malaise recognize some notion of "vibrations", offered in more vulgar circles for the manifestation of will. Hence, it seems that many of the New Age hoped that quantum mechanics would show an aura, or provide a translation of how that will radiated as an energetic force. The point is that not all prayer is aimed to God. In fact, for those that accept the assertion that people create gods, there is little or no difference between prayer and a spell, except of course the number of symbols between the adherent and the essence of what they seek. Which leads back to the idea of prayer being a physical phenomenon in some way, the effects of which obviously have not been recorded and identified. As such: According to some schools of Buddhism, yes. There are prayer festivals and other such events of varying significance at which thousands of Buddhists gather in common meditation, reflection, and prayer. In such a manner, prayer is a discipline, not a supplication; it is a manner of focus and grounding. The righteousness of the supplicants is a facet of their larger psychology, which is the factor most dramatically in play. A wrongly-focused desire, one that contrasts with the natural will of the individual, will still create its own psychological resonance, and that distraction--should prayer be a physical phenomenon--can be said to reduce the efficacy of prayer. Likewise, ill-focused prayer would invite the potential for unwanted results. One might pray for money or material wealth, but the classic example is to ask what happens if that prayer is answered when your uncle dies suddenly and leaves you money? (cf. Kraig, D.M. Modern Magick) I doubt it. If prayer is a physical phenomenon, it would seem that the most prevalent trends in human conduct would achieve the greatest result. Given the myriad faith structures within Christianity, I would say that the possibility seems inherent. If prayer is a physical phenomenon, yes. A friend of mine, a student of Tibetan Buddhism primarily, is prone to some rather dramatic rituals to aid his meditations. I think that one depends on God. If prayer is a religious process, then it would seem that the more one devotes to God, the more one might come to expect. Yet in this as all things, God is somewhat mysterious on purpose. Not in the sense of having "magic words" to aid your endeavor. But as I expect that any "successful" demonstration of prayer will include a physical explanation to some degree, I would go so far as to speculate that the efficacy of given words will vary according to each individual. If prayer is a physical phenomenon-- if, if, if . . . (that's a big if, isn't it?) --then I think we would have to look to individual factors to determine the importance of such elements. As a religious process, it would seem that the nature of things prayed for would have some bearing on God's judgment, but if we look at it in, say, the Christian sense, God already knows this prayer is coming and its outcome is already decided, and held to be good. So in that sense, the nature of the thing or things prayed for wouldn't have much bearing. In the more vulgar sense, though, it is commonly imagined that one should not pray ill toward anyone or anything. It would be pretty stupid to be begging God to strike down your enemy. Oh, wait ... well ... you see what it looks like in life, right? The idea being that you don't want to show God how evil a person you are, or something. But, again, in the Christian sense, God already knows. Strangely, I have greater confidence in understanding prayer through its possible scientific quantifications (as infinitesimal and speculative as they might be) than I do in understanding prayer according to the various religions that actually pray. Of course, I don't imagine this post is particularly helpful. You know, I never am, it seems. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Do you think that if we all prayed hard enough that we could float the pentagon? Damn 5 sided building.
