21 years for 77 lives, congrats Norway!!!

[youreyes]

Until war is done away with, 21 years almost seems too harsh.

whats that supposed to mean? you mean 21 years to someone who killed more than 80 people is too much time?

[Syzygys]

Recall that I rebutted all the arguments

No, I don't recall. I thought (objectively speaking, of course) I won the debate. Mind you, the posters of Sciforums are about 80% anti-DP, so it is not like I expect to acknowlegde a loss on your behalf...

As a side note, different countries can have different arguments. Like the economical argument, that most likely doesn't stand in Norway... Anyhow, if you care to try again, I have the time...

[youreyes]

Like the economical argument, that most likely doesn't stand in Norway...

please explain what you mean by this.

[Syzygys]

If he did get out after 21 years, he would need a new identity.
He would be given somewhere to live and enough money to live on.

And I wouldn't be surprised if that place needs to be in another country. Of course, the question arises, who would want him?

After reading the kid saying he wants to yell at him and throw plates on the floor, the Norwegians really deserved him...

[Syzygys]

please explain what you mean by this.

In the US, it costs more to execute a guy (because of the required legal proceedings) than keep him in prison for life. I assume this travesty of justice (lawyers are expensive) doesn't happen in other countries, like Norway. So the "keep him alive because it is cheaper for society" doesn't apply.

Not to mention it is a stupid argument to begin with, because can we put a price on justice? (Not to mention if one worries about price, we could close all prisons, imagine how much cheaper that would be.)

Or yelling at criminals, instead of sending them to prison... I still can believe the stupidity of it...

[Syzygys]

By the way, there WAS a Norwegian public outcry, they didn't want him to be found insane, they didn't want him to be sent to a psych ward. (where I think he actually belongs, or at least debatable)

"Breivik, who laid out his hateful world view in a rambling 1,500-page online manifesto, was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and declared criminally insane after his arrest for the deadly rampage.
However, a public outcry led to a second assessment which found him legally sane – a view shared by most Norwegians in polls, and by Breivik himself who has said he would accept prison but appeal against closed psychiatric treatment."

http://tribune.com.pk/story/425672/n...ced-to-prison/

[quadraphonics]

In the US, it costs more to execute a guy (because of the required legal proceedings) than keep him in prison for life. I assume this travesty of justice (lawyers are expensive) doesn't happen in other countries, like Norway.

That is not a travesty of justice. It is just and sound that the procedural expenses associated with applying a given penalty should be proportional to the severity of that penalty. The more severe the penalty, the more procedures and safeguards need to be put in place to ensure that it is not applied improperly. Since death is the most severe penalty, it follows that it ought to exhibit the highest procedural costs.

because can we put a price on justice?

Sure, why not? Resources are finite, and at some point you gotta have priorities. You want justice or food? Justice or medicine? Justice or national security?

[Syzygys]

Resources are finite, and at some point you gotta have priorities. You want justice or food? Justice or medicine? Justice or national security?

How about a deal? Let weed offenders go free and use the saved money to execute more people. It is a win-win.

But the best part is, that if I bring up that in Swaziland (or wherever) it is cheaper to execute than to imprison, anti-DP have no counter argument, because I have just used their "the cheaper, the better" approach...

Also, the real solution would be making the process simpler and cheaper instead of throwing the baby out with the water...

Anyhow, I think I am taking a break from this topic because everything was said and I don't think we are going anywhere....

[Fraggle Rocker]

this in the land of the descendants of the Vikings? Remember them? With the pointy hats (well, not really) and the dragon ships and the pillaging and murdering? What, did all the tough ones leave or something?

No. Their descendants simply learned how to be more civilized.

All of our ancestors were cavemen. Some of us grew out of it a little faster than others.

whats that supposed to mean? you mean 21 years to someone who killed more than 80 people is too much time?

I think what he refers to is the fact that we not only permit soldiers to kill people we're angry at but actually order them to do so. Private citizens watch this carnage and learn that our society condones killing. So when one of them decides to kill someone he is angry at, he expects us to react the same way: at least with tolerance, and at best with cheers.

Instead we put him in jail, or in some countries kill him. It does indeed not make sense.

War is nothing but anger and revenge writ large. None of the arguments presented here change that fact. War is not civilized, and neither is murder, and neither is capital punishment. Three wrongs still do not make a right.

[Promo]

Oh, and in what possible insane future do we live where a man's rage against a murderer is confined to throwing plates and yelling (but 'really hard'), this in the land of the descendants of the Vikings? Remember them? With the pointy hats (well, not really) and the dragon ships and the pillaging and murdering? What, did all the tough ones leave or something? Holy hell.

Yes all the tough ones did leave.

When food became scarce, some Vikings decided to raid other lands and steal the food and wealth they needed to live. The stories quickly spread of how rich the people were in other lands and how easy it was to get rich on such raids and many Vikings joined together to invade countries such as Britain, Germany, France and Spain.

Eventually, some Vikings invaded and decided to stay in the area they had conquered. Over time, the settled Vikings began to trade, marry and became part of the population of that country.

[universaldistress]

I haven't read this thread, but I would like to reassure people that Breivik will not be getting out. He may have only got 21 years, but the system of parole they employ requires the detainee to no longer pose a danger to the public at large. Now you all and I know that people like Breivik can never be re-trusted to live on the outside again, it just ain't gonna happen. The key has firmly been thrown away . . .

[Syzygys]

but I would like to reassure people that Breivik will not be getting out.

Thanks god, now I can sleep in peace!!! I mean, if you say so...

By the way, what people here think about lobotomy as for changing criminals personality???

[youreyes]

Thanks god, now I can sleep in peace!!! I mean, if you say so...

By the way, what people here think about lobotomy as for changing criminals personality???

its the same as a death sentence in my POV, altering a human body in such a way is killing in a sense. The mind needs to alter itself, to become viable for the society once more.