Eridanus Void or Black Hole?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Prof.Layman, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

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    I was talking to Quantum Quack on another thread where he mentions a link to the Eridanus Void, and he recommended I start a new thread dedicated to the void.

    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...t-Theory-the-universal-constant-Gravity/page8

    I mentioned to him that I have read before, (will try to dig up the book I remember it from if anyone is interested), that theoretically a black hole can be seen to be made larger by the electromagnetic force, or the interaction of charged particles. In this work, that predicts suppermassive black holes, the density of a suppermassive black hole is said to be relatively close to one or that of water (that is about 1000 kg/m^3 or 1g/m^3). So then I thought that someone could avoid all of the infinities and GR breaking down if I could assume that the density of a suppermassive black hole is one. Then the total mass of the void could then be calculated just by a matter of its density, to do this we would then also need to know the volume. This brings the question of what is the true shape of the void? I then noticed that such a large black hole that is a disc shape would then have to be perfectly perpendicular to the Earth, to give its apparant shape. Then I thought well, like the sun and the moon that also looks like a "perfect" disc they are actually spherical. So, then I calculated the mass of the void to be about 7.6 x 10^27 kg. I then noticed that is was stragely close to the number to a link to another number of 6 x 10^27 kg/m^3, the requirment of the amount of mass needed for a closed universe. But wait a minute, 6 x 10^27kg/m^3??? That would mean that there would have to be an Eridanus Void in every cubic meter in order for the universe to be closed. So, I think the m^3 is a typo for the required mass of a closed universe. Any better value of this calculation would be appreciated!

    So then it brings me back to where Quantum Quack suggest that the void may just be an optical illiusion. It was strange to find that it has a bit over the total mass needed for a closed universe. Could we be seeing an affect of all of the combined mass of the closed universe just looping around back on itself? I think more information would be neccesary to validate this conclusion. For instance, does the gravitational attraction of the void obey the normal laws of gravity, or does the void pull everything exponentially away from it? Is the density actually close to one, or is it a value much larger that would then make the mass of the void much larger than the necessary mass of the closed universe?

    Then it rasies the question of if this is actually what we would see if the universe was closed in around on itself. The book that talks about this sort of thing the most is called Hyperspace, by Michio Kaku, Ph.D. I actually did a book report on it once

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    It states that someone that can only observe the three spatial dimensions around them floated down in the direction of a higher dimensional object that they would see a series of different sized three dimensional objects changing shape in front of them. For instance, a hypersphere would look like a sphere that changed in size as you moved through a fourth spatial dimension. So then the void can be seen as a higher dimensional object if it looks like a sphere, but then it would have to change in size as the universe travels in this higher fourth spatial dimension.
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    What makes void a void ? Do you think?
    every reference to this particlular void indicates the serious absence of matter, energy or anything.

    Please show, a link woud be helpful, where cosmologist believe this void to have "content".
    As far as I know it is devoid of any substance...
     
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  5. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Though the topic Eridanus Void is news to me, I am familiar with Laura Mercinci-Houghton and she has writen a paper on a cold spot or void that has been detected in the WMAP data:

    Here is an excerpt from the Lifeboat article http://lifeboat.com/ex/bios.laura.mersini-houghton mentioning her work with the void. The arXiv is availbale if you search under her name.
    [quote="The NewScientist article Mystery of a Giant Void in Space] said ...


    It is a modern tale of much ado about nothing. But that “nothing” is an enormous hole in the cosmos that defies standard cosmology and might just be the imprint of another universe bumping against our own.
    *
    In 2004, a giant cold spot was discovered, with its cosmic microwave background a chilly 20 to 45 per cent lower than the average for the rest of the sky, according to NASA’s WMAP satellite.
    *
    Intrigued, astronomer Lawrence Rudnick decided to take a closer look by examining a survey done by the Very Large Array radio telescope in Socorro, New Mexico. Then in August, his team announced that the most likely cause of the cold spot was a giant void nearly 1 billion light years across that contained almost no stars, galaxies or dark matter.
    *
    It might be time to turn to exotica for answers. Laura Mersini-Houghton of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has an idea: the void was caused by a collision with another universe. String theory says that ours is just one of 10500 possible universes, and Mersini-Houghton’s calculations suggest that this giant void could have been caused by a neighboring universe pushing against our own, repelling gravity and the galaxies within.
    Laura Mersini-Houghton, Ph.D. is a theoretical physicist-cosmologist and professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
    *
    Laura earned her undergraduate degree at the University of Tirana in her native Albania, and she earned her PhD in 2000 at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee with the thesis Vacuum dynamics in the early universe scenarios of phase transitions and extra dimensions.
    *
    She has worked on a variety of topics on the particle physics-cosmology interface. She is particularly interested in the possibility of generating dark energy from transplanckian physics in string theory, gravity and quantum field theory in curved space, and higher-dimension braneworlds.
    *
    Laura authored Birth of the Universe from the Multiverse, Thoughts on Defining the Multiverse, Cosmological Implications of the String Theory Landscape, The Arrow of Time Forbids a Positive Cosmological Constant Λ, Wavefunction of the Universe on the Landscape, and Do We Have Evidence for New Physics in the Sky?, and coauthored Probing Dark Energy with Black Hole Binaries, Nontrivial Geometries: Bounds on the Curvature of the Universe, Eternal Inflation is “Expensive”, Cosmological Avatars of the Landscape I: Bracketing the SUSY Breaking Scale, Cosmological Avatars of the Landscape II: CMB and LSS Signatures, Why did the Universe Start from a Low Entropy State?, and A Fly in the SOUP.
    *
    Listen to her on North Carolina Public Radio WUNC. Read Scientists explore what happened before the universe’s theoretical beginning."[/quote]
     
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  7. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

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    In string theory isn't the collision between two universes supposed to result into a Big Bang? The void seems to be devoid of much of anything to be the birth of a new universe. I was never really to found of that aspect of string theory myself, and it seems like Laura Mercinci-Houghton isn't a big fan of it either.

    I think if the void did have content than it would look the same way, like a black hole, even if it did only have a very low density like one. Like I mentioned earlier, it comes out to be around the mass needed for a closed universe, so then since it is only 1 billion light years across it would have the required mass to be its own closed universe or black hole. The mass would be sufficient for space to curve around on itself just because it is so large. Then it could fit this description of being void of mostly anything. It is what we should expect from seeing a black hole, and I think its size it what allows us to see it directly. I don't think there are any visual pictures of black holes as most of them are detected by their source of gravity. For instance, we don't have any visual pictures of the black hole at the center of the Milky Way, so we can not still confirm its size, even though theoretically it should be close to the size of our solar system. So, if this void is a black hole it could be a big step for Black Hole physics indeed.

    So then is the void another universe like the link describes? As crazy as it sounds it may not be too far off of the mark. I was thinking about it, and if you where to assume that you are inside of a hypersphere you shouldn't see the hole in the center. Say you assume that we live on a two dimensional plane. Then you attach the opposite ends of that plane. This forms the shape of a doughnut, that allows for an object to travel around the plane in both directions. A hypersphere would be doing this same thing but in three dimensions. We should only see our "plane" just come back on itself and repeat as if we just set it side by side from it infinitely. So then I think she may be trying to describe it as though we are moving along a higher dimensional object, that being another universe that is curved in more dimensions, for this reason.

    The closest we can come to describing or imagining a higher dimensional object is by using lower dimensional examples. The doughnut does have a higher degree of curvature at the center around the doughnut hole, although for some reason this hasn't been translated as a hypersphere has different amounts of curvature. It is supposed to be a perfectly round four dimensional object, but we seem to be unable to describe it as a object in lower dimensions that has the same curvature all the way around it.
     
  8. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    I don't thinks so, not at least in the limited knowledge I have of the many versions. It does work that way in my model however, lol.
    I agree with you there. She does raise some interesting questions that seem to be defiant given the peer review that her work is subject to.

    Talking about the void as evidence of another universe is based on that other universe pulling out on the outer reaches of our universe causing the lower density void. I think that result requires spacetime math and vacuum energy density theory which I don't subscribe to, but being a layman, my model doesn't have to pass peer review, lol.
    I'm not following you yet. Maybe it is the fact that I am not familiar with Eridanus. The question of if it is a void or a black hole sound like it might be an interesting subject but you need to add a link that you recommend on Eridanus. I would google it but would expect that I wouldn't get to the right link,

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    .
    I think it very well could be another universe (or in terms of my view that there is just one universe, it could be another arena in our multiverse) but I would look for it to be in line with my ideas of mature galaxy filled arenas that are increasing in volume as the galaxies dispaly separation momentum. I'm sure the presence of such an overlap would cause anomolies in the WMAP data that would be hard to interpret given spacetime multidimensional cosmology and the associated mathmatics. I'll have to leave that debate to the rest of you though since I am essential unprepared to talk in terms of cosmological theories generally accepted by the scientific community.
    I have simplified my life greatly by not endorsing higher dimensions or even spacetime with its curving and stretching of space, so you can see why I don't participate in many discussion that involve the "standard cosmology" which I consider to include Big Bang Theory, Inflationary Theory, General Relativity, and the cosmological principle.
     
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    @Quantum_wave,
    Thanks for the resource, the professor appears to be well grounded and coping well in a difficult theretical arena.
    The importancy of establishing facts before theoretics takes over though is essential.
    She states according to the link you provided:
    What she has indicated as factual is fairly clear.
    • That a cold spot was discoverered
    • That it was investigated by Rudnick using the VLART in New Mexico.
    • That investigation allowed the cold spot to be considered as a void and not a black hole.
    • That Void, now called thre Eridanus Void, was unique and defies conventional theory in very significant ways.


    The rest is pure speculation....about causation.
    Her asssessment is able to be confirmed by the media release from the University of Minnasota's Astrophysics department.[as mentioned elsewhere.]

    However her article is undated which means that her assessment is unofficial and off the record. or entirley a fabrication by someone else.
     
  10. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, lots of speculation. At first the professor had me off my game becaues I had never heard the void called the Eridanus void and didn't see any links provided. So of course I had to Google it myself. There is quite a bit out there about it that I found familiar in reference to the cold spot and the WMAP void. So I went to "images" and clipped this link just to add some flavor to the conversation

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    .

    http://spacetheology.blogspot.com/2012/06/eridanus-supervoid-multiverse.html

    Edit: I'll add this link to post 4 in a thread dealing primarily with Mersini-Houghton's paper on "Is Eternal Inflation Eternal". Post 4 is all of the footnotes and links to the referenced works in that paper and if you look at the several footnote entries from footnote five you will find her paper on Dark Flow with a link to her arXiv paper on "Dark Flow". Maybe more has been published since then on the subject.

    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...sible-or-not&p=2775796&viewfull=1#post2775796
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  11. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

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    I think it may just be the universes doughnut hole, idk what do you think? I think it has inspired me to buy an introductory book: on black holes and General Relativity. I couldn't find any links to the value of the required mass of a closed universe. I think I may have to try and figure it out, will have to get back to you on that one. Speaking of one, if we are in a closed universe, one would have to have a significant impact on how the average mass of the universe curves back around on itself. Like what does it mean for a inner loop of a hypersphere to have an average density of one and how does that effect its curvature? idk, but maybe one day I will be able to find out for myself, and like Quantum Quack become obsessed with a number, but in my case would be one, lol. I think it could both be a void and a black hole.
     
  12. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Where do you get the donut hole idea? Are you picturing the big bang blowing a big smoke ring of cosmic batter?

    It is Friday night so why not take some time to go to obsessions. QQ has his 0, you have your one, and I have ... how do you type the sign for infinity? Maybe \(\infty\)
     
  13. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

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    The idea is that there is no such thing as perfect symmettry for a four dimensional object that is in a shape of a sphere. The doughnut shape is the shadow of a hypersphere, it is the reason it is represented this way in pictures. There is no four dimensional frame to draw it on for example. But, say we look at the shadow of a normal sphere, it does not have perfect symmettry and could look eleptical. So then it begs the question, does a doughnut only look like a doughnut just because the "shadow" of a hypersphere is being projected at an angle? I think the answer to this question is no. Here is why, if you take a two dimensional plane and then try to curve it around into the third dimension, it is impossible to make a perfect doughnut. These are numbers of dimensions that we are all familar with, so then why would it be possible to then take a three dimensional coordinate plane and then curve it back around on itself so that it makes a perfectly symmetrical object? The lower dimensional example doesn't work this way so then why should the higher one? The only instance I can think of where this actually works is when you take a one dimensional line and curve it back around into a circle, but once you add the secound dimension to this process, it no longer works that way. So the principle behind it is that you cannot curve more than a one dimensional object back around on itself so that it is perfectly symmetrical in those dimensions. So then just like a plane would have a doughnut hole, by being curved around into three dimensions, a three dimensional coordinate system would then have a similar doughnut hole by it being curved around in four dimensions.

    So then the hole becomes real, and it is something that we could see from inside of the hypersphere. It would mean that we are looking at the avearage mass of the universe curving around back on itself more sharply in that region of space. The shortest route around the fifth dimension would then be in the area of the Eridanus Void. It would then be where our three spatial dimensions would have to bend inorder to make this journey around the fifth dimension. Just like a plane would have to bend to form a doughnut.
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    A clue to add to your thoughts:
    The light information about the Eridanus void is how old? [according to science we can only see light information.]

    Does the void still exist today? Is it bigger? is it in the same location?

    Remember the data concerning the void is over 10 billion Earth years old....[according to the currently held belief in the photon.]

    it is amuzing and some what disturbing when you read comments like this in the wiki posting:
    when you consider that that same author knows but appears to have forgotten that the information he is writing about is concerning a historical and very ancient artifact a mere 10 billion years old.
    therefore science has no real idea about the "current" universe generally....
     
  15. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

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    I would put it more like, we don't have a Big Bang models that accurately describes the universe. The void is an exception to our current understanding. The universe is supposed to be almost perfectly homogeneous, the void doesn't appear to follow along with this statement. I am surprised they don't mention the void when they mention the CMB, that is always described as being homogeneous. It sounds like they found it in the CMB first, and then released some statements about it before they tried to look at it through a telescope.
     
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    just remember you are talking about something that we only know existed over 10 billion years ago... that is my point ok?
     
  17. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    of how long ago?

    Describing the universe of today using 10 billion year old data is ridiculous and crazy!
     
  18. Prof.Layman totally internally reflected Registered Senior Member

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    Ya, it would probably be a lot of work, and a lot of manpower.
     

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