Man in love with a raped woman - does this really happen?

[wynn]

DISCLAIMER -
Don't jump on me, I am just wondering how realistic some film/book scenarios are.



There is a Turkish soap opera that is quite famous in the soap-opera world, Fatmagül'ün Suçu Ne?.
The story of the soap opera is, in short, that a young woman is raped by three young men. The fourth man, a friend of the three, marries her, partly to protect his friends, partly to protect this woman, partly because he feels guilty for not having stopped them as he witnessed the rape. The two agree to be married for a few years, until things settle, and then divorce.
The scenario is apparently not that rare in rural countries.

But then the man falls in love with her.







Realistically, is that possible?

[R1D2]

If this really happened the woman should have her head examined..
She has to know he was there an watched an didn't do nothing.. An he was ah... what's the laws terms. An accomplice. This would be wrong in many ways.

[GeoffP]

"Rural" countries? Turkey is not a "rural country".

[Tiassa]

Realistically, is that possible?

Why not?

I mean, sure, it seems an extraordinarily exceptional circumstance, but why not?

I would have to read an English translation of the original novel to be certain, but certain points come to mind:

• Turkey is a country constantly in tension between a secular government and religious extremism.

• Story themes appear to involve the question of how rape survivors are regarded in traditionalist Islamic communities.

• In general terms, yes, it is easily possible for a neurotic complex to result in "falling in love" as post-hoc ego defense.

So, from my perspective, it might be an extraordinary circumstance, but the possibility of such an outcome is not necessarily an extraordinary proposition as derived from LaPlace. Thus, is it possible? Yeah, sure; why not?

[wynn]

Soap operas like this may give abused women false hope.

[youreyes]

its all bull, soap operas are made to make emotions flow non-stop.

[Fraggle Rocker]

The fourth man, a friend of the three, marries her, partly to protect his friends, partly to protect this woman, partly because he feels guilty for not having stopped them as he witnessed the rape. The two agree to be married for a few years, until things settle, and then divorce. The scenario is apparently not that rare in rural countries.

I'll take your word for it, but as has already been noted, Turkey is hardly a "rural" country.

But then the man falls in love with her. Realistically, is that possible?

I'm not sure which aspect of the story you're speaking to.

• Yes, I can easily see a man marrying the woman if that will prevent his friends from being prosecuted. Turkey is not the "rural" cesspool of religious fundamentalism you may perhaps believe it to be. In Afghanistan and much of Pakistan, maybe even Saudi Arabia, sure, a raped woman would be considered "flawed" and "unclean," perhaps even executed for her "crime" of fornication. But in Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq (before we ruined it) and other more secular Islamic cultures, she would be merely a poor sad soul in need of help.
• Yes, I can easily see a man marrying the woman out of kindness. Americans marry poor sad souls in need of help all the time. Many Turks are just as modern and cosmopolitan as Americans, with the same impulses. Remember, they were on a par with the British Empire for many centuries.
• Yes, I can easily see them doing this strictly as an arrangement. Keep the woman safe until the incident (and the rapists) are forgotten by all but those close to it.
• Yes, I can even see a man hesitating before jumping in and trying to rescue a women from THREE of his violent friends. There are places in America where he would find himself alone in the struggle, as everyone else nearby pretends they don't notice so they won't be visited by seven members of MS-13 or the Crips in the middle of the night. Apparently these bad guys have one good friend, but most bad guys have dozens of bad friends.
• Finally, yes, I can easily see the man falling in love with his wife. Maybe she's a really sweet lady any man would fall in love with. Maybe she's so grateful to him for rescuing her that she treats him like a king. Maybe chemistry just took over. Wouldn't be the first time.

I'm not saying that any of these things would happen for sure in any particular real-life incident. But they're certainly plausible.

If this really happened the woman should have her head examined. She has to know he was there and watched and didn't do anything. And he was ah... what's the law's term. An accomplice. This would be wrong in many ways.

As I said above, he might simply have been dissuaded by the thought of one of him trying to stop three of them, when they were already in a violent and antisocial mood. Could you stop three of your friends if they had hyped themselves up into an act of unspeakable violence? I'm sure I couldn't. We don't know enough of the details, but this probably happened in a time and place where he couldn't simply scream "Help!" and expect seven big tough honorable guys to come running out into the street and rescue the damsel in distress.

Soap operas like this may give abused women false hope.

I'm not sure what hope you're calling "false." The hope that someone will come along who loves her and will try to give her the home and the care and the peaceful life she deserves? There are lots of wonderful men in the world who try to do more than their share. It's a shame that the newspapers make more money by featuring the other kind.

Or the hope that someday she'll surmount this catastrophe and become whole and healthy again? Hey there are still hundreds of Auschwitz survivors alive, and many of them managed to somehow put their catastrophes behind them and live the rest of their lives in peace and harmony. They tend to gravitate into lives that give them opportunities to help others. Perhaps she'll do that.

Or just the hope that the world will become a better place? It's been improving steadily, although not monotonically, since the Agricultural Revolution forced us to learn how to get along with people outside our own extended family. There's no reason to think it won't continue to do so. I haven't seen any statistics on rape (probably because until recently so few were reported) but the statistics on murder show that we've become much more civilized in the last half millennium. Even wars kill fewer people than they used to.

[Balerion]

Yeah, I'm not sure where the "false hope" bit comes from.

[R1D2]

F.R.
You said ... As I said above, he might simply have been dissuaded by the thought of one of him trying to stop three of them, when they were already in a violent and antisocial mood. Could you stop three of your friends if they had hyped themselves up into an act of unspeakable violence? I'm sure I couldn't. We don't know enough of the details, but this probably happened in a time and place where he couldn't simply scream "Help!" and expect seven big tough honorable guys to come running out into the street and rescue the damsel in distress.

An I say it is better to do something. "Positive" an try an help. Then live with the guilt, anguish, an regrets. You can always try.
I know someone who apparently was raped before I knew her. I only have her side of the story. An nothing to go on. An if I was there, I would have tried helping. Even if it killed me.
An I would have done tried helping anyone I was around when a vile act like that is carried out. Its not just my nature, its also my character. I am not a do gooder I don't compare. But I do have a little compassion for the living. An I know I could not just be a witness.
F.R. You may be sure you can't do a damn thing. But I won't ignore what is happening in front of me an be blind to what's going on. I won't be an accessory to the crime either.

[scheherazade]

From the link in the opening post:

Plot

Fatmagül Ketenci is a girl who lives in a village on the Aegean coast with her brother who runs a dairy. She is engaged to marry a fisherman Mustafa Nalçalı in a months time and dreams of getting away from her nagging sister-in-law who hates her. Kerim Ilgaz is a well mannered blacksmith apprentice who lives with his aunt Meryem Aksoy known affectionately as "Ebe Nine" ("Granny Ebe") who is a healer of herbal medicine. The big event of the season is the engagement of the area's rich and influential businessman Reşat Yaşaran's son Selim to the politician Turaner Alagöz's daughter Meltem. Kerim meets up with his old friends Vural, Erdoğan and the Selim. After the engagement party, all four of them go on a drinking and drug binge to celebrate. Fatmagül is off to see Mustafa off on another fishing trip and accidentally comes across them. Erdoğan, Selim and Vural gang-rape her, with Kerim passed out with no recollection of the event. A traumatized Fatmagül is later discovered the next morning by Ebe Nine while she is picking her herbs. As the town go into an uproar over the rape incident, Kerim accepts the blame and agrees to marry Fatmagül as he mistakenly believes himself to be guilty and in order to protect his friends. As a result Fatmagül and Kerim's families sell their properties and move to İstanbul to start a new life. But things become complicated due to the machinations of the Yaşaran and their unscrupulous lawyer Münir Telci who seek to protect themselves as well as Mustafa who seeks revenge.

The bits I have emphasized seem relevant to the discussion. We are examining the story from the perspective of hindsight and logic yet the parties portrayed were in a culture and situation that lies outside of our own parameters of normal. One cannot expect an individual under the influence of alcohol and drugs to make rational or moral decisions, IMO. Had Kerim not been under the influence of substances, perhaps his actions might have been different.

[wynn]

As for the soap-opera story - obviously, there's quite a bit more detail to the story.
The young men who raped her are from rich and influential families, there is a lot of money involved, a cunning lawyer who manages to destroy the evidence and medical records, the woman's sister-in-law who blackmails the rich families and so on.
The man who married her eventually turns himself in to the authorities and reports the crime.



As for the topic -
A man falling in love with a woman for whom he knows she was raped?
Wouldn't a man consider a raped woman to be permanently damaged and unfit for a romantic relationship? That was certainly the view of most of the villagers (men and women), which is why they wanted her to leave the village.

[Fraggle Rocker]

And I say it is better to do something positive and try an help, than live with the guilt, anguish, and regrets. You can always try. I know someone who apparently was raped before I knew her. I only have her side of the story. And nothing to go on. And if I was there, I would have tried helping. Even if it killed me.

There's no point in sacrificing your life in order to do something that has zero chance of success. If you saw someone being torn apart by three lions, would you jump in to "help," when you would only be "helping" the lions by doubling the size of their meal?

If you sacrifice your life in a pointless effort, then some day when someone is in danger and you actually could help, you won't be there. Wouldn't that be unfortunate for everyone involved?

Life is an endless sequence of very difficult decisions.

But I won't ignore what is happening in front of me an be blind to what's going on. I won't be an accessory to the crime either.

"Accessory" is a legal term, not a moral one. The law will not hold you accountable for failing to stop a crime which you could not possibly have stopped. As for the moral aspect, that's between you and your conscience. But if you happen to be a religious person and you believe that your god would want you to jump into that fray so that when it was over there would be one raped woman and one dead man, instead of just one raped woman, then your god is a jerk.

One cannot expect an individual under the influence of alcohol and drugs to make rational or moral decisions, IMO.

Oh balderdash. You sound like my parents, who would be 100 if they were still alive. People get drunk/high/stoned/whatever every day (or perhaps more accurately every night) and still hang onto their morals and principles. Teenagers are perhaps more likely to behave in the manner you describe because their value system hasn't gelled yet and they're more easily seduced by the prospect of wicked and/or irresponsible fun--intoxicated or not. (It doesn't actually solidify until the early 30's--deferred gratification, risk analysis, altruism, the discounted present value of future costs and benefits, etc. This is why the assholes who run our governments generally only recruit people in their teens and twenties to fight their wars. The rest of us know that killing is wrong and we would tell them to go fuck themselves.)

A man falling in love with a woman for whom he knows she was raped? Wouldn't a man consider a raped woman to be permanently damaged and unfit for a romantic relationship?

I know you don't respect my judgment, but I am a man so I'm qualified to answer the question. I fell in love with a woman who had been raped when we were in our mid-twenties. I would have been delighted to marry her, but it didn't work out. She got cancer and died ten years later so we never had a second chance to make it work. I still miss her.

Only a self-righteous asshole would tell a woman who's been raped, "OK honey, maybe YOU were able to put this behind you, but I can't." Not that there aren't a lot of assholes out there of course. They're not all clustered in the world's governments.

[R1D2]

F.R. As for lions. In my area there are none. Just gators. I can handle those. But again you brought up the military. I would tell ya where to shove those ideas. But this is a forum. An I was a soldier. So what's your problem with them (an I would say that includes me).

An since You are a mod. I will tell you I been thinking that some, not naming anyone have pushed buttons. An a few have inadvertently pushed a few people away.

Just saying...

[scheherazade]

Fraggle, we are discussing the plot of a soap opera based on a novel in a different culture as relates to an all too familiar crime against women and differing societies attitude towards the victim and the perpetrators.

From the link posted in the OP:

After the engagement party, all four of them go on a drinking and drug binge to celebrate.

People who combine substances to excess often have no recollection of their actions. While they are under the influence, they may do, or not do things that they would not undertake otherwise because their brain is, for all intents and purposes, short-circuited.

Thank you for sharing your opinion but I see no purpose to continue debating the hypothetical. After all, opinions are like posterior orifices.....everybody's got one, myself included.

(Working graveyards, I have encountered some seriously 'messed up' individuals. One even tried to physically assault my big truck while I was driving it one night. Totally illogical and very unnerving. )

[Balerion]

As for the topic -
A man falling in love with a woman for whom he knows she was raped?
Wouldn't a man consider a raped woman to be permanently damaged and unfit for a romantic relationship? That was certainly the view of most of the villagers (men and women), which is why they wanted her to leave the village.

Are you being serious? I fell in love with a rape victim, and Fraggle has as well. That's two people in this thread alone who have. Are you actually suggesting that it's not possible?

I just can't fathom how someone could be so out of touch. You realize men are humans like you, yes?

[Trooper]

After all, opinions are like posterior orifices.....everybody's got one, myself included. Working graveyards, I have encountered some seriously 'messed up' individuals.

Along those lines and speaking of soap operas, I used to work graveyards in the emergency room. There were always very unusual objects to be plucked from external orifices in the wee hours. One guy was a repeat offender…always a potato. We used call him the French fry maker. One girl stuck a bean in her nose. It sprouted and you could see it in the back of her throat.

The strangest thing that ever happened…I get a call from a guy, who said that he was a record producer and was bringing in his client, who had hurt his back. He wanted to make sure that we could keep it on the down low. He said that it was Roger Waters. I wasn’t a big Pink Floyd fan at the time and had never heard of him. No one else knew what he looked like. Well, excitement ensues, and in enters a big fat, red-haired, Irish man with a heavy accent. He had fractured a disk. So, they admit him. He prances around the hospital telling everyone who he is. Says that he has a concert in Europe in a few days and offers to pay one of the physicians an enormous amount of cash to fly with him and keep him comfortable. He convinces the doctor to order a case of morphine to take with them and says his pilot will pick it up from the hospital pharmacy. A man shows up in plain coveralls and exits with the morphine. He then convinces the hot X-ray tech to sneak him out that night and take him hot tubbing at her place. The dumbass slept with him. She brings him back and the next morning his room is empty. The hospital ate the bill, of course. The president of the corporation, administrator, and all involved (including myself) was called in and told to keep our mouth shut, or else. Well, it’s been years, and the corporation went belly up, but now I know what Roger Waters looks like. I've always wondered if they pulled that same scam elsewhere.

Realistically, is that possible?

I don’t see why not.