Indian Democracy, Chinese Autocracy

**S.A.M.** · 08-04-12, 10:22 PM

Great discussion on the differences between Chinese and Indian economic model and the challenges for growth in the future

**RedStar** · 08-04-12, 10:24 PM

Anti-communist propaganda

Even though China isn't socialist nowadays (thanks to Deng Xiaoping)

**youreyes** · 08-04-12, 11:34 PM

what did Deng Xiaoping doo exactly?

**Norsefire** · 08-05-12, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by youreyes

what did Deng Xiaoping doo exactly?

He initiated market "reforms" and austerity measures.

**RedStar** · 08-05-12, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Norsefire

He initiated market "reforms" and austerity measures.

I see you know your Chinese history

Yes, pretty much that

**youreyes** · 08-05-12, 03:33 PM

Great God...this one man alone has been the cause of the Chinese GDP to increase many times over...

**RedStar** · 08-05-12, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by youreyes

Great God...this one man alone has been the cause of the Chinese GDP to increase many times over...

Maybe so, but he's also the cause of austerity and inequality growth. I think China could have improved in wealth slower and more equitably without Xiaoping's reforms.

**kmguru** · 08-05-12, 05:40 PM

It is Chinese Technocracy...I taught them that many years ago...and they are still on it. India did not...though I gave the same to India too...

**youreyes** · 08-05-12, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by kmguru

It is Chinese Technocracy...I taught them that many years ago...and they are still on it. India did not...though I gave the same to India too...

I don't get it, are you claiming to be a leader behind Chinese and Indian economies at the same time? Mr. Kmguru?

**Read-Only** · 08-05-12, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by youreyes

I don't get it, are you claiming to be a leader behind Chinese and Indian economies at the same time? Mr. Kmguru?

That's doubtful.

I think it may be a reference to W. E. Demming who studied the process in Japan and then brought it to the U.S. It was readily adopted here - widespread! - and we shared the principles with the rest of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

**kmguru** · 08-05-12, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Read-Only

That's doubtful.

I think it may be a reference to W. E. Demming who studied the process in Japan and then brought it to the U.S. It was readily adopted here - widespread! - and we shared the principles with the rest of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

That is exactly correct. We were just consultants spreading his ideas... but I was there too...providing that benefit to both countries...one took it, the other did not...

**Billy T** · 08-05-12, 07:14 PM

Interesting discussion in the OP´s video, but IMHO, too much backward looking analysis / assumptions. I.e. all assumed the one child policy of China is a source of great social stress in a couple of decades (too few workers to support the retirement of the old). This ignores the other side of the coin: - India´s huge young population (400 million MORE than China in about 2040) will need jobs but automation will do a great deal of them and solve many of the assumed problems associated with China´s aging population.

I.e. the discussion may have the demographics problem located in the wrong country.

**kmguru** · 08-05-12, 07:33 PM

Another issue is that 3 years ago, I was asked to help out one 2200 MW Power Plant in India. I hooked them up with a engineering company...but nothing moved forward. Then two years ago, I was asked to help out in energy and I set up a financial group to provide funds for 100000 MW power system. We set up engineering, design people, finance etc. From their side all they have to do is a go ahead from the big leader to proceed.

After six months, nothing went anywhere...so, we knew how this will go. Too many Indian Lawyer Leaders could not do anything....

**S.A.M.** · 08-05-12, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Billy

the discussion may have the demographics problem located in the wrong country.

I think they were discussing it with reference to the services sector. Do you see that getting automated? Won't it be a problem in China?

Originally Posted by kmguru

After six months, nothing went anywhere...

Yes, getting things done is harder with the old school people. Try the younger ones today and see the difference

**youreyes** · 08-05-12, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by kmguru

Another issue is that 3 years ago, I was asked to help out one 2200 MW Power Plant in India. I hooked them up with a engineering company...but nothing moved forward. Then two years ago, I was asked to help out in energy and I set up a financial group to provide funds for 100000 MW power system. We set up engineering, design people, finance etc. From their side all they have to do is a go ahead from the big leader to proceed.

After six months, nothing went anywhere...so, we knew how this will go. Too many Indian Lawyer Leaders could not do anything....

What made them back out of the deal you proposed? finance issues?

**Read-Only** · 08-06-12, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by youreyes

What made them back out of the deal you proposed? finance issues?

I would bet it got bogged down in the process of getting permits/licenses issued. India is absolutely famous for it's corrupt local governments and delays, delays, delays. And that was mentioned more than once in the video.

**Michael** · 08-06-12, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Read-Only

That's doubtful.

I think it may be a reference to W. E. Demming who studied the process in Japan and then brought it to the U.S. It was readily adopted here - widespread! - and we shared the principles with the rest of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Here's some trivia: When I was in University I used to date one of his last secretaries daughters - who interestingly, was perhaps one of the most brilliant people I've met.

**Billy T** · 08-06-12, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by S.A.M.

I think they were discussing it with reference to the services sector.

It seemed quite clear to me they were making the somewhat standard argument about supporting the old with far fewer workers, but I admit there is a lot of services required in old folks homes. I have also read that some robots are being tested in Japan that deliver food and pills to beds. Japan already has an high average age. Also with computers and wheelchairs, etc. old frail bodies can be quite productive - just like women can and do serve in armies now that physical strenth is less of a requirement.

Originally Posted by S.A.M.

Do you see that getting automated? Won't it be a problem in China?

Yes, I foresee a lot of older folks with sound minds, providing services both in the society at large and even in the old folks homes: E.g. a 75 years nurse living in an "old folks home" may well be kept in good mental health as she/he feels useful helping to care for some who need to have the temperature and pulse taken. That nurse could control the robot lifting a patient etc. when strength is required.

I think India will have the greater demographic problem - how to find non-subsistence jobs as the rural population is replaced by modern large scale industralized agricultural as US has had for 50 years, China is now developing and some day India will too.

**kmguru** · 08-09-12, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by S.A.M.

Yes, getting things done is harder with the old school people. Try the younger ones today and see the difference

We have been at India for the last 2 years in Military, Economics, Power, new projects etc...nothing moves very well....but the interest is still there like in Africa (India was connected to Africa many million years ago....so the ideas are similar)...see the power issue and I wanted to do a 100000 MW power System....

**kmguru** · 08-09-12, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Read-Only

I would bet it got bogged down in the process of getting permits/licenses issued. India is absolutely famous for it's corrupt local governments and delays, delays, delays. And that was mentioned more than once in the video.

Again that is correct. The 2200 MW by private enterprise had serious permit, license, money issue to get a clear signal to proceed. When I started out, China had less GDP than India. Now China is 6 times bigger....One American company lost $2 Million playing the Indian game.

As to the 100GW power, my contact told the minister and then we could not proceed anywhere. Because it is a high value project, I could not get a Letter of Interest from the Minister. I was told on the phone that I have to come with pure money to create the interest (which was theirs to begin with). My major financial companies (USA and Europe) who wanted to put the Money backed away....even though I had natural gas groups ready to set up the process.

Same thing happened to me in Zambia in the last 45 days which has serious Power issues. I connected with ZDA and they are supposed to meet with us in USA to solve the problem. But they do not proceed at all.