07-27-12, 12:44 PM #21
07-27-12, 12:48 PM #22
hell even most people pay the income tax which is what your really talking about. unless you think 50% plus one person doesn't pay income tax.
try at least attempting to be intellectually honest
07-27-12, 12:52 PM #23
07-27-12, 06:21 PM #24
There's a whole Corporate Industry that's developed since the "Great Society" of the 1960s specifically to pander to and give more and more entitlements to these NON-PAYING "American" freeloaders - who like to use Government Services but don't like to pay for them. It's called Federal Politics.
But, don't worry, everyone's got to pay at some point. And that Patriotic blanket is big, might want to watch whose under there, as some Citizens make better cannon fodder than other.
07-27-12, 06:44 PM #25
In Ancient Rome there was a culture of individualism. You can still see it today. Back then it was a family's point of pride to make 'X' better than some other family. This social competition laid the foundation of Roman culture. Romans were also quite open when it came to letting people into their city - as long as they adopted Roman Culture and added to the City's greatness. Which, without welfare you either did something or you left. Romans were also, to the bafflement of the Greeks, more than happy to extend Citizenship to Slaves. By the height of the Empire most Romans Citizens were or had ancestors who had been Slaves. Slavery could be seen more as an internship. A smithy slave worked for a smithy for minimum wages and food and housing and over time if his craft was good he'd pay his master for his freedom and then go open up business as a smithy and one day he'd take an apprentice slave. That was utterly common in Rome.
By the time of Julius Caesar there was a culture of giving free handouts to the masses/Citizens as a means of pascifying the public as well as buying elections. Caesar, a military hero, did pander the citizens with once off Triumphs but he also kicked 1/3 the city residents off the free public wheat (this knocked about 110,000 citizens off the welfare system). He knew it was corrupting Roman culture of self-reliance and individualism (and in the long run couldn't be afforded - the numbers always grow). He had the clout to do this. Most politicians wouldn't have dared.
Over time later Emperor's would continue to pander to the city residents and soon the number getting free wheat was right up to where it was. Over time being given wheat wasn't enough. They were promised salt. Romans in the Caesar's time were always expected to bake their own bread at home. Sure, they were given a staple of wheat but you take it home and make it into food yourself. In time the State promised to bake it for the Citizens. Then olive oil was promised. And soon pork too. And all the while the numbers keep growing. Never shrinking.
This costs money. Money is first squeezed from the richest. Generally this is good for the State as it takes away any power that might threaten it's rule. Next comes borrowing. Some of Roman's most beloved Emperor's borrowed and blew out the treasury reserves. That needs paid back so, with the wealthiest gone, the business class must be heavily taxed. When the burden is heavy enough they start to decrease in productivity and join the welfare class or leave. The masses pander for more. Expect more. Hence wheat is met with salt, then it must be baked, then olive oil is added and in the case of Rome finally pork is given out too. That costs a lot more. So, the workers are taxed (eventually at the maximum). Finally the State has to resort to debasing its currency. This works in the beginning and usually earns an Emperor love and adoration of the masses on welfare (but is generally hated by the business and working class - some of whom try to sell themselves into Slavery to avoid tax). And, when the coinage can be debased no longer, trade stops and the whole house of cards collapses.
So, it's not just about debasing the currency. That's symptomatic of a sick society. In a healthy society coinage and currency wouldn't be in the process of debasement. If you see inflation/debasement it's a cue to you that something is wrong with the economy and hence with the society.
In the USA we've come up with a nifty little thing called 30 year Bonds sales to the Chinese. See, most societies wouldn't feel comfortable with selling the future labor + interest of their children to satisfy their own selfish needs in the present. Welcome to the BabyBoomers. The reason our economy is sick is because the society is sick. People think it's moral to sell their children's labor. That it's moral to steal the workers labor. The WORKER pays for the privilege of working?!?! That's sick. Then there's the debasement of the currency. Which, at present, is pretty much like those 0.2% silver containing Roman coins - not worth the paper it's not printed on.
And yet the public demand is for MORE not less.
So? Where to from here? Given our sickened culture of entitlement it's probably going to be the Big Print. BUT, the crooks at the Federal Reserve don't want to see their plush lifestyle flushed and so maybe they're just have to raise bond rates and watch as the public riots and burns. But, with the militarily able to subdue the masses inside the States (thank you Bushbama), the USD would be saved. Or, there's always a Big War. That'd get the needed inflation up and going.
Which way will we go?
07-27-12, 06:52 PM #26
But don't let that get in the way of your righteous indignation that a social good that greatly benefits taxpayers might also benefit people who are too destitute to have any money to tax. Obviously, your priorities are totally defensible, and our society would be way better off if we prevented the poor from using the roads. That way, they would be guaranteed to remain poor and... um... step #3 is "Profit," that much I've figured out anyway...
07-27-12, 07:35 PM #27
You use the roads!
Secondly, if you bothered to read the response it was to show to another poster than no, ALL of the national debt is shouldered by only half of the public. Not nearly everyone.
Thirdly, I noticed you did it again. You put your intellect on hold and went with you gut responce which was akin to Be Gone Yea Heathen!
As soon as the State stepped in with welfare in the 1960s "Great Society" (somewhat akin to Mao's Great Leap Backwards) reduction in poverty STOPPED going down (at a respectable 1% per year) and stabilized and actually reversed course and started increasing! You want to talk about perpetual poverty. Go to a State housing project. If a psychopath could device a means of perpetuating poverty-hell on earth it would be a State housing project. Otherwise known as "The Projects". Where my nieces sociopathic mother was just shot in the guts. That little project the State located directly on top of the old city landfill.
So, don't blame me or the (many multiple types of) libertarian Austrian economic philosophy - blame yourselves for the perpetual poverty. All we've been doing is debasing our currency and paying to KEEP people in State run poverty. The Projects are STATE run progressive hell holes.
Anyway, in regards to the Big Print: The Coinage Act or the Mint Act made debasement of the currency punishable by DEATH. If Ben Bernanke were alive in 1792 he'd have been hung for treason when he stated his GOAL was 2% inflation (which in commodities like food and energy is more like 8-9% and rising).
Just to give you an idea of how serious inflation and currency debasement was taken by the US Government back when it could find it's ass with both hands unlike the clowns that make up Congress today.
07-27-12, 07:37 PM #28
07-27-12, 07:58 PM #29
Meanwhile, the fact that we are running a deficit means that nobody is "shouldering" the debt, to speak of. It's growing, not being paid down.
07-27-12, 08:02 PM #30
Will you recant if QE3 occurs?
What if poverty is worse in 5 years not better?
What does it take to dislodge you guys from la la land and rejoin the real world? Take a look at Japan. It's economy is a mess. Look at what the Euro brought to Europe. Look out your own window that is the mess that was once a great country.
07-27-12, 08:34 PM #31
You need to understand that you are way out in left field, are often incoherent, frequently contradict yourself, and evince a pathological inability to stay on topic and answer direct, substantive questions. You are the last person to lecture others on delusions or lack of grip on reality.
07-27-12, 09:09 PM #32
Why do you think Keynesian economics is so prevalent? Do you think it's because these macro-economic models are so great at predicting social change? Or do you think it's because at the heart of these models it says yes, you politicians SHOULD intervene and do things to 'help' society. Imagine a politician dealing with something like the Depression. Two people offer advice. One says: Yes, my model says you can do something. Another says: My model says you shouldn't do anything.
Which is a politician going to lean towards?
Which do you think a Politicians is going to choose?
Whose career is going up and whose has ended? Whose going to become a Professor at a prestigious University and teach a generation of bankers (those very bankers f*cking up our economy) and who is going to be left as Associate Professor, not tenure and maybe lucky to work at a Bank, not run a bank.
I'm just suggesting you give it some thought as to why you happen to coincidentally think the State's pet economic theory is the right theory.
This is the same theory that advised farmers to kill their livestock and burn their produce as people starved to death. That wasn't Austrian that was Keynesian economics. This is the same theory that says War is Good. WAR... the killing of woman and children (which we ARE doing as we speak)... is GOOD for the economy. You may want to reflect on that.
(Austrian Economists have won Nobel prizes, not sure if that is good or bad, but there you go).
07-27-12, 09:16 PM #33
07-28-12, 03:29 AM #34
so do us all a favor and just up until your ready to be truthful.
and while are large percentage of american don't pay federal income taxes its still less than half. all you care about is declaring those who don't agree with you evil and your willing to fucking lie to get people on bored with you.
also it should be noted 80% of american pay some sort of federal tax on their income( ie payroll taxes)
but again this still doesn't change the fact your switching to the income tax to cover your lying ass. your just another libertarian leech on society who gains all the benefits but doesn't want others to have same as you had.
07-28-12, 11:03 PM #35
It's implicit given the topic I was referring to income tax, no one else seemed to have made that mistake.
Regarding "social services", I'm more than happy to see the poor given a helping hand and this would best be done through private donation. If you think income tax is helping "the poor" you're smoking crack. Income tax helps the wealthy. Social services sucks up 80% of the money in administration with a paltry 20% actually seeing a poor person - let alone "help one". Help the poor remain poor more like it.
So, yeah, if you support perpetuating a poor underclass and feeding fat white middle class American 'Federal Service Providers' that buy landfills from crooked politician donors and build Project Housing Hell Holes - go for it. But don't think you're helping the poor because you're not.
And as we're a representative democracy then it MUST be that most people are in favor of paying to help the poor. If not then the government couldn't legally do it. So, it's a matter of "helping" that's at issue.
07-30-12, 08:47 PM #36
I was listening to two "Economists" last night.
The first was of the mind that The Big Print will NOT be coming and as Deflation accelerates "Dynasties will be made" while others collapse and banking houses crumble. I suppose you could say he was a "Cash is King" for those with the guts, brains and fortitude. And luck. He thinks the Fed is powerless in the face of what we're about to see hit us. They simply don't have THAT much cash to manipulate. Particularly as their scheming is coming under the light of day. This MASSIVE debt bubble is Deflating and he sees a flight to cash... if you can get your hands on enough of it.
The other seemed to be thinking along the same lines except he does think the Federal Reserve has the power to print and thus will attempt the Big Print and destroy our currency. And our current monetary system. He suggests those that are quick enough will be able to grab assets pennies on the dollar just before the Big Print.
Which is it? Which will it be?
Big Print or Big Collapse?
Inflation or Deflation?
I suppose the first economist did make the point that at the end of the day, the Fed is a private bank. They'll do what they have to, to secure their own first - which means, no Big Print. Isn't it ironic we live in the "Worlds Greatest Democracy" and have no say over our monetary future. We all have to stand in our stalls and wait to see what Farmer Ben and his Banking Technocratic morons decide to do.
07-30-12, 09:06 PM #37
07-31-12, 05:07 PM #38
I'd suggest the Ancient Greek aphorism "Know thyself".
So? You think Libertarian political ideology is intellectually dishonest? OK, show me where Libertarian Anarchism is "Intellectually Dishonest" because I'm fairly certain that's not going to be the case. Progressive Ideology OTOH actually IS intellectually dishonest. It called for using the power of the State to force other humans to change their non-aggressive behavior. The intellectually dishonesty comes from the idea of "The State". Which is why "Americans" think drug laws are fine "in America" but don't have a problem with the Netherlands lack of similar drug laws "they're not American". As if labeling oneself by the State changes morality.
So, again, I suggest you heed the ancient call to self-knowledge.
07-31-12, 07:18 PM #39
That doesn't imply that the theories are incorrect as such, though.
One important point is that Keynesian economics only endorses intervention in certain circumstances - basically, when there is a bad downturn in the business cycle and aggregate demand has collapsed. Keynesian economics emphatically does not endorse intervention in general circumstances: you're supposed to prop up demand for a limited time to allow the economy to recover, and then cease all your interventions and pay down the incurred debt. Politicians who advocate constant intervention are not really Keynesians (although they will borrow from the theory to try to justify themselves).
That said, Keynesianism doesn't advocate perpetual (victorious) war to boost aggregate demand. It just notes that in a situation wherein aggregate demand is too low, war mobilization can provide a really big, broad - and politically sustainable - boost. Keynesianism would not, however, advocate continuing such stimulus indefinitely. Once demand has stabilized and recovered, the intervention is supposed to stop because it is harmful beyond that point.
07-31-12, 08:21 PM #40
So? You think Libertarian political ideology is intellectually dishonest?OK, show me where Libertarian Anarchism is "Intellectually Dishonest" because I'm fairly certain that's not going to be the case.Progressive Ideology OTOH actually IS intellectually dishonest.It called for using the power of the State to force other humans to change their non-aggressive behavior. The intellectually dishonesty comes from the idea of "The State". Which is why "Americans" think drug laws are fine "in America" but don't have a problem with the Netherlands lack of similar drug laws "they're not American". As if labeling oneself by the State changes morality.
So, again, I suggest you heed the ancient call to self-knowledge.
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