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Thread: The Death Tolls of Socialism And Capitalism

  1. #1

    Exclamation The Death Tolls of Socialism And Capitalism

    For clarification, I say socialism and not communism because states such as the Soviet Union and Maoist China were socialist implementations - this is really just a semantics thing, but actual communism obviously has never existed since it must be international. You can call them communist if you want. The following is obviously my interpretation and I'm interested and open to your thoughts.

    Now, moving on.

    For this analysis I will be focusing A) on the development of modern capitalism B) On the various socialist states that have come about, especially the Soviet Union and Maoist China

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    The Death Toll of Capitalism


    The mode of production wherein there exists a class of people who own the very means to livelihood and a class of property-less workers leads to class antagonism. Workers and owners have mutually exclusive interests. Furthermore, the capitalist mode of production actively creates situations that enable profit-making from human misery. Indeed, entire industries are predicated on the continued existence of war, illness, poverty, and paranoia. The arms industry; big pharma and big medicine; the financial industry, and more, would all be economically diminished and devastated by a decrease in warfare or illness. It is literally against the interests of these industries to solve some social problems. When you have a mode of production where warfare actually stimulates the economy, you know your mode of production is not geared toward the fulfillment of human life. This is a flaw inherent in the for-profit private mode of production known as capitalism. Capitalism is predicated on class divide and the expropriation of wealth from laborers. This is obviously true because otherwise, there would be no point in hiring employees - employees generate more wealth than they earn. This is essentially true. Class divide and misanthropic interests are the products of capitalism.

    Modern capitalism and the improved standard of living of the First World is the result of brutal policies of colonization and imperialism in the Third World, as well as domestic exploitation. While libertarians may adhere to this fantasy notion that "what we have now isn't real capitalism", the material and historical reality is that modern capitalist production developed only because of brutal exploitation. Libertarianism is the epitome of idealism, which in this case does not mean naive (although it is), but evoking principles and beliefs which reside in the realm of the "ideal" rather than examining material conditions. Libertarians believe in protecting ideals even at the expense of human life - hence the contradictions where a market allows empty houses to sit around while there are homeless people obviously in need of housing.

    Never mind that. Libertarian policies have never existed and likely never will. Even during the Gilded Age, a period of rampant free capitalism, there was imperialistic exploitation of the Third World by Americans and other colonial powers. Imperialism is, therefore, an expression of capitalist interest: nations invade other nations for sources of materials, markets, and labor. I should be more precise and say specific classes within nations invade other nations for sources of materials, markets, and labor. There is no such thing as "we won a war" - material gains have never been distributed equally to the troops or the people of the mother nation, but to the capitalist class of that nation (e.g. Hawaii, the Philippines, World War I). The capitalist mode of production is very much responsible for the deaths due to imperialist wars and policies - deaths that resulted from wars and massacres over privatized wealth. Whereas some have this skewed and irrational notion that only libertarian fantasy capitalism is "real" capitalism and you can't attribute death counts from imperialism to capitalism, the reality is imperialism is a system propagated by privatized wealth: the fundamental notion of capitalism. The great tragedy is so many of these deaths were avoidable.

    This includes, but is not limited to:

    United States:

    US intervention in Latin America: 6.3 million dead
    Invasion of Philippines: 650,000 dead + 1898 war 3 million dead
    Afghanistan: 1.2 million dead
    Vietnam War: 10 million dead
    Korean War: 10 million dead
    Yugoslavia: 300,000 dead
    Iran-Iraq War (US funding both sides): 1 million dead
    US intervention in Congo: 5 million dead
    US Civil War (financial vs land capitalists) 650,000 dead
    Native American genocide: 95 million dead
    African slave trade: 150 million dead
    Indonesian purges against communists: 1 million dead (underestimate)
    US Bombing of Laos and Cambodia: at least 1 million dead
    US backed Batista, Pinochet, Metaxas, Saddam, Suharto, and various dictators supported by the United States: at least a few million

    Britain:

    Bengal Famine: 10 million dead
    British Occupation of India: 20 million dead
    Famine in Held British India: 30 million
    Irish potato famine (British farmers could have helped): 1.5 million

    Japanese imperialism in China and Asia: 12 million
    South African apartheid: 3.5 million
    Spanish Civil War: 350,000
    French colonies: 1 million dead

    Note that this does not include the number of children and adults alike in the First World who have died from hunger and lack of access to basic needs of life.

    This is a good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmYSNDr84M4
    In total, the death toll of capitalism exceeds 1 billion. You may doubt the video because it is made by a communist, but history does corroborate these death tolls.


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    The Death Toll of Socialism

    What is critically important in analyzing the number of people that "died under" the Soviet Union or Maoist China is that you examine post and pre revolutionary statistics. By and large, the number of people who died from preventable causes after the establishment of the USSR and PPC is well below the number of people who routinely died from famine and poverty before socialism. This is also evident in Cuba, where Cuban health and educational statistics are well above her non-socialist neighbors

    http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/
    http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/...tatistics.html

    Keep in mind that in all the countries where socialism has been implemented, there was little to no advanced industrial capitalism. This naturally meant a material struggle which could not be fought overnight. Nobody supposes that socialism guaranteed overnight utopia or any utopia at all: only a fairer distribution of food, health care, and the like.

    Indeed, with statistics and sources I provided in the USSR thread, the USSR industrialized and provided superior health care only after socialism. This is all despite two major World Wars which resulted in 25 million casualties and leveled entire cities, and the routine threat of the Cold War. The same goes for the other socialist revolutions: there were numerous attempts to crush the PPC in China, and to undermine the Cuban revolution. The material accomplishments of socialism are especially impressive when it is understood just how hard the bourgeois West tried to undermine it.

    The White Army of the USSR, supported by foreign capitalist interests, engaged in the routine murder of the peasant classes of Russia. Chiang Kai-shek's reactionary forces murdered peasants in China and stole their land. Batista brutally suppressed Cuban dissent and arrested Cuban youth.

    Under the leadership of Mao Zedong, China's illiteracy rate was, in fact, significantly reduced and industrial development improved. While it is true that millions died during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, this was due to poor planning and insufficient industrial resources and not deliberate executive orders of murder. By far, the working and peasant classes of China enjoyed greater quality of life after the revolution than before it. Many Chinese regret the descent of the Chinese revolution into capitalism and one of the most misinformed myths of the West is that the Tienanmen Square incident was a protest of socialism: on the contrary, it was a protest of policies that diverged from the policies of the Gang of Four and Mao.

    The same can be said for the Soviet Union. The Ukraine famine, which did occur, did not occur because of any deliberate executive order, and the persecution of the Kulaks was rightfully done because of their collusion in allowing the grain to rot. Stalin sent strict orders to continue production because the working classes of the cities depended on the grain: to spite him, they hoarded the grain and allowed workers to die.

    According to www.stalinsociety.co.uk, the gulag system was, in fact, not a death camp system and most inmates were released within 1-3 years. Never mind the fact that many of them were common criminals, it is an interesting point that there are more prisoners in America now than at any point in the Soviet Union.

    What is important to note about the death toll of socialism is that poor policy or insufficient industry does not constitute murder. Mao Zedong never gave executive orders that called for murder. While he did enable Chinese peasants to hold trials for the landlords, their actions are independent of his approval and the execution of some 800,000 landlords across China was an expression of local anger at the landlords who let the Chinese starve to death. The same can be said of the Soviet Union. What is important to understand is that fewer people suffered, by far, under the USSR or PPC than before revolution. There seems to be an intellectual trend where any death occurring in socialism is attributed to socialism, whereas the routine murders of people in capitalism is either "not real capitalism" or "just a few bad people.

    There were genuinely murderous regimes that justified their actions in the name of socialism. Pol Pot is one such man; but people forget that it was the Vietnamese communists who ultimately stopped (and thus laid judgement) upon Pol Pot. Korea DPR is another such regime, which has moved entirely away from Marxism on an ideological level (Juche, etc)

  2. #2
    Everyday Iím Shufflin Xotica's Avatar
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    Mirroring religious fanatics, Nazi skinheads and communists always gum up the board with their incessant proselytizing.

  3. #3
    troaty mouth best song ever pjdude1219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xotica View Post
    Mirroring religious fanatics, Nazi skinheads and communists always gum up the board with their incessant proselytizing.
    hey don't forget about libertarians

  4. #4
    If you're not here to talk about history, get the fuck out. Personal attacks and mindless one-liners are not arguments and don't make your account of history true, no matter how much you wish they did.

  5. #5
    troaty mouth best song ever pjdude1219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedStar View Post
    If you're not here to talk about history, get the fuck out. Personal attacks and mindless one-liners are not arguments and don't make your account of history true, no matter how much you wish they did.
    this thread isn't about discussing history. its about fucking rewriting it.

    sorry but I'm going to treat as fucking joke it is.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by pjdude1219 View Post
    this thread isn't about discussing history. its about fucking rewriting it.

    sorry but I'm going to treat as fucking joke it is.
    What am I rewriting?

    Millions have indeed perished in the name of profit, and most of what you learn about the history of socialism is complete propaganda, never presenting the full details. I even provided fucking sources. What do you want?

    Please highlight exactly what I am rewriting. I'd like to see.

    Quit being a tool. I like you, but don't swallow all the bullshit you are fed in school. If you want to dispute something I said, please do that. Please propose an argument rather than dismissing everything I wrote because it doesn't conform to your view of history.

  7. #7
    Curmudgeon of Lucidity Grumpy's Avatar
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    Comrade, go f___ yourself. Communism is dead and buried somewhere under the rubble of the USSR.

    Grumpy

  8. #8
    Valued Senior Member
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    This is pretty close to how it went for United For Communism too. To me, it's fascinating to see an example of a dogmatic true believer. The sort of person who made Cambodia's killing fields possible, and went around denouncing the slightest trifles as being counter revolutionary during the cultural revolution, thus sending hapless people off to work camps or worse.

    "Advocacy of Communism by those who believe in Bolshevik methods rests upon the assumption that there is no slavery except economic slavery, and that when all goods are held in common there must be perfect liberty. I fear this is a delusion." - Bertrand Russell
    The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism

  9. #9
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    Throughout history, people in small and large numbers have been fighting other people in small and large numbers for various reasons - mostly one batch wants to take something away from the other batch. A whole lot of people end up dead, ground is scorched, homes are wrecked, girls are raped, dogs are eaten, disease organisms are transmitted, and something gets taken away from somebody.
    Throughout history, people have followed lunatics, charlatans, zealots, powerfreaks and greedbuckets into very bad decisions with very bad outcomes.
    These facts can be interpreted in any number of partisan slants, proving nothing except that we're a species prone to various strains of madness.

    Socialism, to the extent that it's implemented by a reasonably sane, reasonably competent, reasonably honest leadership in a reasonably hospitable geographical region, works better than any form of feudalism, theocracy or unregulated capitalism so far practiced by civilized nations - if your definition of 'better' is similar to mine, which may be summarized as "that which yields the highest attainable incidence of present well-being and long-term health to the human community and its natural environment".

  10. #10
    Wow, this thread has already degenerated into bullshit. Why is it that any history which doesn't conform to the "America good, communism bad" philosophy is automatically wrong?

    Grumpy, you go f yourself. The USA has murdered more people than communism ever has. You know who is seriously rewriting history? People like you who omit all the worst crimes the US has ever committed, who never teach kids about the real extent of the slave trade, the Native American genocide (and the dishonesty of American military and political officials), the Vietnam War, the Spanish-American War and subsequent imperialism, the butchery of Latin America by American companies, and all the various CIA affairs (like the Contra affair) which you guys created.

    Bullshit. You are rewriting history by denying all of this, all the crimes. Your country is built on the blood of millions.

    Romanians prefer communism
    http://21stcenturysocialism.com/arti...ism_02030.html

    Russians prefer communism
    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/1316..._soviet_union/

    And if you actually knew anything about Cuba you'd know that Cuba has a National Assembly and open elections, definitely freer than her non-socialist neighbors.

    So you go fuck yourself. The Communist Party of France, Russia, and Spain are all alive and well and Marxist thought is alive and well throughout Europe and throughout the world. And yes, there are communists and socialists in your beloved Israel too.

    You Americans live in a bubble of black-and-white. Get real.

  11. #11
    Everyday Iím Shufflin Xotica's Avatar
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    This is the Internet and the membership here is international. I suspect that quite a few SF members and/or their families, possess real-life experience living under a communist regime. Your "history lessons" and "ideological seminars" may impress the uninitiated, but no matter how you sugar-coat things there are indeed people here with either a first-hand experience of communism or an oral history of it bequeathed by their families. In addition, the equivalency argument - your system killed more than mine - is arguable at best and furthermore, does nothing to extricate your beloved communism from the odorous bowels of history.

  12. #12
    Curmudgeon of Lucidity Grumpy's Avatar
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    RedStar

    The USA has murdered more people than communism ever has.
    Really? I don't think you are a good source of information on this point.

    You know who is seriously rewriting history?
    Yes, you. That is all you have done here.

    People like you who omit all the worst crimes the US has ever committed, who never teach kids about the real extent of the slave trade, the Native American genocide (and the dishonesty of American military and political officials), the Vietnam War, the Spanish-American War and subsequent imperialism, the butchery of Latin America by American companies, and all the various CIA affairs (like the Contra affair) which you guys created.

    Bullshit. You are rewriting history by denying all of this, all the crimes. Your country is built on the blood of millions.
    I have neither ignored, nor have I denied the history of my country, as you do yours. I live about 5 miles from the Cherokee Indian Reservation and know the history of the Trail of Tears intimately. I live in the South and know the history of the slave trade as well. I was in the Vietnam war and know the history of Indochina well. In fact, I think I know more of the history of my country(and the World, for that matter)much better than you have shown a similar knowledge of Communism and it's atrocities. Neither side is better in this respect, and the Soviets are just as blood steeped as the US is. Throw all the religions in and this world is awash with blood shed and repression, I would put Communism among the more violent and blood thirsty of the religions as well as of the countries. A good bit of my knowledge of the history of the world was learned in school, so your complaint about that is bogus as well. You are an ideolog and I am not. You think "it will work this time if we are pure enough" and I know better, that we must balance ideologies and positions to reach the best outcome. Pure ideologies ALWAYS fail. Pure Capitalism fails, pure socialism fails(these are economic theories, not ideologies), pure Communism failed worldwide. Imperialism(international feudalism)failed many times, the only ideology that has had any lasting success is Democracy, governance of, by and for the people

    The Communist Party of France, Russia, and Spain are all alive and well
    And marginalized and not allowed anywhere near the levers of power(by the people's will). Your Russian Communists are analogous to our bigots and racists, longing for the fallen paradigm of slavery(to individuals in the US, to the state in Russia)and inequality they grew up with. Southern slavery isn't coming back, neither is Communism. They are dead, the body is just still twitching.

    Grumpy

  13. #13
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    Don't become enamoured of, or for that matter, repulsed by, the labels. They range from inaccurate to outright fraudulent.
    So-called communist countries were never communal and are not anything like a commune: though the marginal parties may be pure in their ideology, once a party gains power, its purity and ideology are shot to hell (and the old, loyal members silenced, purged - or shot.)
    So-called democracies have ruling elites that do everything in their power to circumvent, undermine or subvert the democratic process; their success varies from moderate to blatant.
    Capital wears an array of labels, all incorrect; its apologists think wishfully; its opponents hurl invective; its experts just lie.
    Ideologies exist on paper and in slogans, not in political process.
    Labels don't kill people; people hang labels on the people they have killed or hope to kill.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
    RedStar
    Really? I don't think you are a good source of information on this point.
    So now you're like a Holocaust denier, denying all the atrocities committed in the name of profit.
    Yes, you. That is all you have done here.
    Nope. You are the one who needs to provide evidence that millions were "murdered" under communism since that is your claim. That's not to say people weren't murdered: Pol Pot and Korea DPR are examples of complete and total brutality that produced no socialism whatsoever (and Pol Pot, I will remind you, was stopped by the Vietnamese).

    Millions died under communism but many of the deaths were from famines, and famines are not murder. They're not planned. They are due to either poor or insufficient policy or production.

    Hitler sending people to concentration camps is murder. People dying from famine because they can't magically produce food out of no where isn't murder, and guess what? They died from famine even more before communism. That's the point people like you always ignore.

    I have neither ignored, nor have I denied the history of my country, as you do yours. I live about 5 miles from the Cherokee Indian Reservation and know the history of the Trail of Tears intimately. I live in the South and know the history of the slave trade as well. I was in the Vietnam war and know the history of Indochina well. In fact, I think I know more of the history of my country(and the World, for that matter)much better than you have shown a similar knowledge of Communism and it's atrocities. Neither side is better in this respect, and the Soviets are just as blood steeped as the US is. Throw all the religions in and this world is awash with blood shed and repression, I would put Communism among the more violent and blood thirsty of the religions as well as of the countries.
    Nonsense. The well over 1 Billion murdered under capitalism dwarf any figure you could possibly cite for communism.
    'A good bit of my knowledge of the history of the world was learned in school, so your complaint about that is bogus as well. You are an ideolog and I am not. You think "it will work this time if we are pure enough" and I know better
    No, I'm a materialist. I never said it didn't work in the first place. The Soviet Union worked. Stalin's period saw great economic growth and an improvement in the living standard. I'm not one of those "we haven't had real socialism yet" dreamers. I look at the USSR, Cuba, and China and point out all the things that did work, as I have been doing.
    that we must balance ideologies and positions to reach the best outcome. Pure ideologies ALWAYS fail. Pure Capitalism fails, pure socialism fails(these are economic theories, not ideologies), pure Communism failed worldwide. Imperialism(international feudalism)failed many times, the only ideology that has had any lasting success is Democracy, governance of, by and for the people
    You're saying something, and yet you aren't. This sounds like intellectual fluff. Care to elaborate on what the "balance" means, or provide evidence?

    And marginalized and not allowed anywhere near the levers of power(by the people's will).
    No...I thought I made it clear. The Marxist movement in Europe is significantly large. It's mainstream in many countries (Russia, Spain, France, Greece, Germany, etc)

  15. #15
    Only want the best for Nigel
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    Are you actually trying to compare the mortality rates resulting from an economic theory?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by The Marquis View Post
    Are you actually trying to compare the mortality rates resulting from an economic theory?
    Of the historical implementations of these theories. Quit being dense.

  17. #17
    Everyday Iím Shufflin Xotica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedStar View Post
    Millions died under communism but many of the deaths were from famines, and famines are not murder. They're not planned. They are due to either poor or insufficient policy or production.
    Holodomor denial is every bit as sickening as Holocaust denial...

    The History Place: Genicide in the 20th Century: Stalin's Forced Famine 1932-1933 - 7,000,000 Deaths

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Xotica View Post
    Holodomor denial is every bit as sickening as Holocaust denial...

    The History Place: Genicide in the 20th Century: Stalin's Forced Famine 1932-1933 - 7,000,000 Deaths
    No, it really isn't, because you can't compare the two. Next to nobody denies that the Holdomor tragedy actually happened. The question is whether or not it was deliberately caused by the Soviets, and there are differing historical opinions

    Mario Sousa

    The myth concerning the famine in the Ukraine

    One of the first campaigns of the Hearst press against the Soviet Union revolved round the question of the millions alleged to have died as a result of the Ukraine famine. This campaign began on 8 February 1935 with a front-page headline in the Chicago American '6 million people die of hunger in the Soviet Union'. Using material supplied by Nazi Germany, William Hearst, the press baron and Nazi sympathiser, began to publish fabricated stories about a genocide which was supposed to have been deliberately perpetrated by the Bolsheviks and had caused several million to die of starvation in the Ukraine. The truth of the matter was altogether different. In fact what took place in the Soviet Union at the beginning of the 1930s was a major class struggle in which poor landless peasants had risen up against the rich landowners, the kulaks, and had begun a struggle for collectivisation, a struggle to form kolkhozes.

    This great class struggle, involving directly or indirectly some 120 million peasants, certainly gave rise to instability in agricultural production and food shortages in some regions. Lack of food did weaken people, which in turn led to an increase in the number falling victim to epidemic diseases. These diseases were at that time regrettably common throughout the world. Between 1918 and 1920 an epidemic of Spanish flu caused the death of 20 million people in the US and Europe, but nobody accused the governments of these countries of killing their own citizens. The fact is that there was nothing these government could do in the face of epidemics of this kind. It was only with the development of penicillin during the second world war, that it became possible for such epidemics to be effectively contained. This did not become generally available until towards the end of the 1940s.

    The Hearst press articles asserting that millions were dying of famine in the Ukraine - a famine supposedly deliberately provoked by the communists - went into graphic and lurid detail. The Hearst press used every means possible to make their lies seem like the truth, and succeeded in causing public opinion in the capitalist countries to turn sharply against the Soviet Union. This was the origin of the first giant myth manufactured alleging millions were dying in the Soviet Union. In the wave of protests against the supposedly communist-provoked famine which the Western press unleashed, nobody was interested in listening to the Soviet Union's denials and complete exposure of the Hearst press lies, a situation which prevailed from 1934 until 1987! For more than 50 years several generations of people the world over were brought up on a diet of these slanders to harbour a negative view of socialism in the Soviet Union.

    The Hearst mass media empire in 1998

    William Hearst died in 1951 at his house in Beverly Hills, California. Hearst left behind him a mass-media empire which to this day continues to spread his reactionary message throughout the world. The Hearst Corporation is one of the largest enterprises in the world, incorporating more that 100 companies and employing 15,000 people. The Hearst empire today comprises magazines, books, radio, TV, cable TV, news agencies and multimedia.

    52 years before the truth emerges

    The Nazi disinformation campaign about the Ukraine did not die with the defeat of Nazi Germany in the Second World War. The Nazi lies were taken over by the CIA and MI5, and were always guaranteed a prominent place in the propaganda war against the Soviet Union. The McCarthyite anti-communist witch hunts after the Second World War also thrived on the tales of the millions who died of starvation in the Ukraine. In 1953 a book on this subject was published in the US. This book was entitled 'Black Deeds of the Kremlin'. Its publication was financed by Ukrainian refugees in the US, people who had collaborated with the Nazis in the Second World War and to whom the American government gave political asylum, presenting them to the world as 'democrats'.

    When Reagan was elected to the US Presidency and began his 1980s anti-communist crusade, propaganda about the millions who died in the Ukraine was again revived. In 1984 a Harvard professor published a book called 'Human Life in Russia' which repeated all the false information produced by the Hearst press in 1934. In 1984, then, we were finding Nazi lies and falsifications dating from the 1930s being revived, but this time under the respectable cloak of an American university. But this was not the end of it. In 1986 yet another book appeared on the subject, entitled 'Harvest of Sorrow', written by a former member of the British secret service, Robert Conquest, now a professor at Stamford University in California. For his 'work' on the book, Conquest received $80,000 from the Ukraine National Organization. This same organisation also paid for a film made in 1986 called 'Harvest of Despair', in which, inter alia, material from Conquest's book was used. By this time the number of people it was alleged in the US had lost their lives in the Ukraine through starvation had been upped to 15 million!

    Nevertheless the millions said to have died of starvation according to the Hearst press in America, parroted in books and films, was completely false information. The Canadian journalist, Douglas Tottle, meticulously exposed the falsifications in his book 'Fraud, famine and fascism - the Ukrainian genocide myth from Hitler to Harvard', published in Toronto in 1987. Among other things, Tottle proved that the photographic material used, horrifying photographs of starving children, had been taken from 1922 publications at a time when millions of people did die from hunger and war conditions because eight foreign armies had invaded the Soviet Union during the Civil War of 1918-1921. Douglas Tottle gives the facts surrounding the reporting of the famine of 1934 and exposes the assorted lies published in the Hearst press. One journalist who had over a long period of time sent reports and photographs from supposed famine areas was Thomas Walter, a man who never set foot in the Ukraine and even in Moscow had spent but a bare five days. This fact was revealed by the journalist Louis Fisher, Moscow Correspondent of The Nation, an American newspaper. Fisher also revealed that the journalist M. Parrott, the real Hearst press correspondent in Moscow, had sent Hearst reports that were never published concerning the excellent harvest achieved by the Soviet Union in 1933 and on the Ukraine's advancement. Tottle proves as well that the journalist who wrote the reports on the alleged Ukrainian famine, 'Thomas Walker', was really called Robert Green and was a convict who had escaped from a state prison in Colorado! This Walker, or Green, was arrested when he returned to the US and when he appeared in court, he admitted that he had never been to the Ukraine. All the lies concerning millions dead of starvation in the Ukraine in the 1930s, in a famine supposedly engineered by Stalin only came to be unmasked in 1987! Hearst, the Nazi, the police agent Conquest and others had conned millions of people with their lies and fake reports. Even today the Nazi Hearst's stories are still being repeated in newly-published books written by authors in the pay of right-wing interests.

    The Hearst press, having a monopolist position in many States of the US, and having news agencies all over the world, was the great megaphone of the Gestapo. In a world dominated by monopoly capital, it was possible for the Hearst press to transform Gestapo lies into 'truths' emitted from dozens of newspapers, radio stations and, later on, TV channels, the world over. When the Gestapo disappeared, this dirty propaganda war against socialism in the Soviet Union carried on regardless, albeit with the CIA as its new patron. The anti-communist campaigns of the American press were not scaled down in the slightest. Business continued as usual, first at the bidding of the Gestapo and then at the bidding of the CIA.

    Robert Conquest at the heart of the myths

    This man, who is so widely quoted in the bourgeois press, this veritable oracle of the bourgeoisie, deserves some specific attention at this point. Robert Conquest is one of the two authors who has most written on the millions dying in the Soviet Union. He is in truth the creator of all the myths and lies concerning the Soviet Union that have been spread since the Second World War. Conquest is primarily known for his books The Great Terror (1969) and Harvest of Sorrow (1986). Conquest writes of millions dying of starvation in the Ukraine, in the gulag labour camps and during the Trials of 1936-38, using as his sources of information exiled Ukrainians living in the US and belonging to rightist parties, people who had collaborated with the Nazis in the Second World War. Many of Conquest's heroes were known to have been war criminals who led and participated in the genocide of the Ukraine's Jewish population in 1942. One of these people was Mykola Lebed, convicted as a war criminal after the Second World War. Lebed had been security chief in Lvov during the Nazi occupation and presided over the terrible persecutions of the Jews which took place in 1942. In 1949 the CIA took Lebed off to the United States where he worked as a source of disinformation.

    The style of Conquest's books is one of violent and fanatical anti-communism. In his 1969 book, Conquest tells us that those who died of starvation in the Soviet Union between 1932-1933 amounted to between 5 million and 6 million people, half of them in the Ukraine. But in 1983, during Reagan's anti-communist crusade, Conquest had extended the famine into 1937 and increased the number of victims to 14 million! Such assertions turned out to be well rewarded: in 1986 he was signed up by Reagan to write material for his presidential campaign aimed at preparing the American people for a Soviet invasion. The text in question was called 'What to do when the Russians come - a survivalists' handbook'! Strange words coming from a Professor of History!

    The fact is that there is nothing strange in it at all, coming as it does from a man who has spent his entire life living off lies and fabrications about the Soviet Union and Stalin - first as a secret service agent and then as a writer and professor at Stamford University in California. Conquest's past was exposed by the Guardian of 27 January 1978 in an article which identified him as a former agent in the disinformation department of the British Secret Service, i.e., the Information Research Department (IRD). The IRD was a section set up in 1947 (originally called the Communist Information Bureau) whose main task it was to combat communist influence throughout the world by planting stories among politicians, journalists and others in a position to influence public opinion. The activities of the IRD were very wide-ranging, as much in Britain as abroad. When the IRD had to be formally disbanded in 1977, as a result of the exposure of its involvement with the far right, it was discovered that in Britain alone more than 100 of the best-known journalists had an IRD contact who regularly supplied them with material for articles. This was routine in several major British newspapers, such as the Financial Times, The Times, Economist, Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, The Express, The Guardian and others. The facts exposed by the Guardian therefore give us an indication as to how the secret services were able to manipulate the news reaching the public at large.

    Robert Conquest worked for the IRD from when it was set up until 1956. Conquest's 'work' there was to contribute to the so-called 'black history' of the Soviet Union fake stories put out as fact and distributed among journalists and others able to influence public opinion. After he had formally left the IRD, Conquest continued to write books suggested by the IRD, with secret service support. His book 'The Great Terror', a basic right-wing text on the subject of the power struggle that took place in the Soviet Union in 1937, was in fact a recompilation of text he had written when working for the secret services. The book was finished and published with the help of the IRD. A third of the publication run was bought by the Praeger press, normally associated with the publication of literature originating from CIA sources. Conquest's book was intended for presentation to 'useful fools', such as university professors and people working in the press, radio and TV, to ensure that the lies of Conquest and the extreme right continued to be spread throughout large swathes of the population. Conquest to this day remains for right-wing historians one of the most important sources of material on the Soviet Union.
    At any rate, even if I did concede that incident to you, there are still a billion more deaths to blame on capitalism.

  19. #19
    Only want the best for Nigel
    Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedStar View Post
    Of the historical implementations of these theories. Quit being dense.
    Seems to me that you're the one with a selective perspective. I like that. Selective perspective.

    So. In a nutshell, you're basically saying that you view the economies of the west as being true and representative of capitalism, while Soviet Russia was not representative of Marxism?
    Just to clarify. I mean, I'm giving you every chance under the sun here, sunshine.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by The Marquis View Post
    Seems to me that you're the one with a selective perspective. I like that. Selective perspective.

    So. In a nutshell, you're basically saying that you view the economies of the west as being true and representative of capitalism, while Soviet Russia was not representative of Marxism?
    Just to clarify. I mean, I'm giving you every chance under the sun here, sunshine.
    No, I'm not denying the USSR was an implementation of socialism...I never said it wasn't representative of Marxism. Why would I? It improved Russian quality of life and had great economic success. I have nothing to deny

    I would argue that after Stalin, it started to make market reforms which undermined the revolution, but from 1922-1953, that was a form of socialism in action.

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