Why does the West tolerate Israeli crimes?

[GeoffP]

Pj, I'm just reposting this so I don't forget to conclude on these points:

the crux of the issue is that Israel creation was a violation of the palestinian self determination.

OK, so Palestinians have a right to self-determination. No argument there.

also Israel doesn't have the right to exist. no country does. if you actually stop and think about you'd realize just how fucked up the concept is.

So...Palestinians have a right to self-determination, which much necessarily include the possibility of nationhood...but no country has a right to exist, and particularly not Israel? Is Palestine an exception? Are there other exceptions you can think of? How do you reconcile these seemingly contradictory views?

[pjdude1219]

In this planet, it is impossible to stay neutral to this issue and make a comment about it. Because no matter what your motives are, as soon as you open your mouth somebody will be hurt just because "you are not defending" this somebody. If you can convince both sides that you are genuinely not supporting either side, then they will tell you to mind your own business. So, all in all, there is no way to handle this topic without taking a side.

Up until recently, I was trying to stay in the middle; I was trying to see the mistakes or atrocities committed by both sides. Then one day I was called as being Jewish by an over excited Muslim activist. But hang on a minute, this thing has nothing to do with my personality, why the hell did I get this branding? That day I decided, yeah why not, from now on I will always prefer Israel propaganda over the Islamic ones, because at least Israelis have never accused me as "being muslim" or anything else.

All in all, you are wrong Muslim guys. I don't care how many people suffered because of your struggle or I don't care who is the true owners of these territories. The formula is very simple: You don't listen and you accuse, that means you are automatically wrong. I'm going to find some excuses to defend Israelis, as they are minority in the region, they are always being attacked, and I will deliberately blind myself towards what Israel government is doing against Arabs. I will feel much relaxed now... How about that?

so in other words your letting your own ego decide who to support rather than anything resembling facts or reason congrats no matter how bad either side gets you'll still be a worse person than they are. and you may not have seen the pro Israeli people accuse someone of being muslim or arab but it happens rather frequently but barring that yes they accuse people more anyone critical of Israel is almost always painted as an anti semite. so in addition to reling on your ego you basis for doing so is also wrong.

[RedStar]

As a communist, I don't defend the KDPR, because it actually - remarkably - appears to be worse for its proletariat than American imperialism. Why on earth should the most egregiously bad example of communism be defended because they pay lip service to a concept that, by rights, should destroy such a regime?

Further, supporting reactionary theocracies does not appear to me to be the best way to develop the dialectic. You incorporate all the excesses of reactionary capitalism, and back it with a horrifyingly insidious devotion to reactionary religion. It's technological feudalism. It's actually worse than American hegemony.

You are right. But a nuclear Israel is no friend of communism either.

[RedStar]

Here's another interesting bottom line: Israel is the one place in the world and the last several thousand years of recorded history where Jews cannot and are not persecuted for being Jews.

Garbage. And again, Europeans have hurt the Jewish people more than any Arab ever has, so why are Palestinians being made to pay?
Why don't Americans give up Rhode Island?
I mean, get real. By the way, Jews are not persecuted in the USA.

[baftan]

Actually, this thread can perfectly be changed to "Why does the West tolerate Muslim crimes" such as against women and other minorities? What makes you think that the West specifically treat Israelis differently when it comes to tolerating crimes? Do the maths: How many people suffered under Arab and/or Islamic regimes and how many people suffered because of Israel since 1948? Come on, bring the numbers and let's see what is tolerated....

[RedStar]

Actually, this thread can perfectly be changed to "Why does the West tolerate Muslim crimes" such as against women and other minorities? What makes you think that the West specifically treat Israelis differently when it comes to tolerating crimes? Do the maths: How many people suffered under Arab and/or Islamic regimes and how many people suffered because of Israel since 1948? Come on, bring the numbers and let's see what is tolerated....

Then let's first examine Western crimes against humanity.

[baftan]

There is a better way to deal with this issue: Let's deal with crimes against humanity due to religious and national stupidity, alongside economic and cultural ones? What's your specific focus on what you call "Western"? Did they kidnap your dog or something?

[RedStar]

There is a better way to deal with this issue: Let's deal with crimes against humanity due to religious and national stupidity, alongside economic and cultural ones? What's your specific focus on what you call "Western"? Did they kidnap your dog or something?

What's your focus on Arabs?

[baftan]

I explained above, it's just a personal choice, in reality there is not a great difference for me when it comes to what humans are capable of doing to each other. What I want to show in your thread in here, arguments can easily be questioned if we particularly focus on certain group of people (in your case "Israelis") or a civilization (in your case "Western"). And that's what I am doing: Leaving Westerners as common denominator, give us some numbers about how many people suffered under Israelis vs. suffered under Islamic/Arab regimes or countries since the second world war. Moreover, come up with an explanation that which civilization historically created the concepts such as human rights or crimes against humanity? Roman? Ancient Greek? Maybe Chinese, or hang on, maybe Aztecs... We all know the answer, don't we?

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

as much as I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and as much as I dislike Israel do you think that maybe the reason for that is they don't share a border?

No.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

As a communist, I don't defend the KDPR, because it actually - Further, supporting reactionary theocracies does not appear to me to be the best way to develop the dialectic. You incorporate all the excesses of reactionary capitalism, and back it with a horrifyingly insidious devotion to reactionary religion. It's technological feudalism. It's actually worse than American hegemony.

You're a communist?

Since when? Stop joshing already. Developing the dialectic? LOL. Was there a full moon I didn't notice? Say it ain't so Geo.

[Grumpy]

RedStar

But a nuclear Israel is no friend of communism either.

I worry a whole lot less about a nuclear Israel than about a nuclear Iran. And I would just point out that NOONE is a friend of Communism, Communism is a total failure as an ideology(despite the flaws in other ideologies), it always ends in corruption and sloth.

Grumpy

[RedStar]

You're a communist?
Since when? Stop joshing already. Developing the dialectic? LOL. Was there a full moon I didn't notice? Say it ain't so Geo.

I'm sorry, are communists aliens from outer space?

[RedStar]

RedStar
I worry a whole lot less about a nuclear Israel than about a nuclear Iran.

You do. Clearly Iranians don't. The world doesn't revolve around you.

And I would just point out that NOONE is a friend of Communism

Except all the Marxists around the world

Communism is a total failure as an ideology(despite the flaws in other ideologies), it always ends in corruption and sloth.

Proof?
People like you need to realize that these statements are not self-evident, no matter how mindlessly widely circulated they are. You need to provide historical sources and explain or stop making stupid one-liners that you take as a given as being true.

[GeoffP]

Garbage.

Not so, I'm afraid. Cultural repression of Jews in the East has been about as severe as that in the West.

And again, Europeans have hurt the Jewish people more than any Arab ever has, so why are Palestinians being made to pay?

Only within the last century. Meanwhile, Judaism has an ancestral tie to the Levant.

Why don't Americans give up Rhode Island?
I mean, get real. By the way, Jews are not persecuted in the USA.

Well, get real. If Jews are not persecuted in the USA, why 'give up' Rhode Island? In fact, why 'give up' anything at all? Living in mutual peace and prosperity are better. When one side considers it necessarily a 'loss', their reasoning has to be investigated.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I'm sorry, are communists aliens from outer space?

If they're named Geoff. I've been here for years and I have never known that man to be a communitst.

[GeoffP]

You're a communist?

Since when? Stop joshing already. Developing the dialectic? LOL. Was there a full moon I didn't notice? Say it ain't so Geo.

Always been so, Mrs. Lucy. Capitalism, to my mind, has been responsible for more suffering over a longer period than socialism could ever hope to aspire to. It is the greatest of all possible curses on our species; to paraphrase Orwell, it is a boot on a human face, worn by the fallacy of meritocracy.

My wife appears to be a Republican of some kind if that makes you feel any better.

[GeoffP]

If they're named Geoff. I've been here for years and I have never known that man to be a communitst.

Well I am from outer space, as if that were any of your business, madam.

[GeoffP]

You do. Clearly Iranians don't. The world doesn't revolve around you.

Just for perspective, the world doesn't revolve around Iran either. A nuclear Israel is much less of a risk than a nuclear reactionary theocracy like Iran.

[RedStar]

Not so, I'm afraid. Cultural repression of Jews in the East has been about as severe as that in the West.

This is so incredibly incorrect.

Repression of the Jewish people has occurred in the West for literally millenia. All the way from the Roman-Jewish Wars, the deportation of Jews from England, Spain, the burning of Jews during the middle ages, and of course, the Holocaust. The Crusaders under orders from the Roman Catholic Church literally beheaded Jews and Muslims alike during the Crusades.

There is nothing, nothing, that compares to all of that in the Arab world for the Mizrakhi Jews, nor has there ever been.

Only within the last century. Meanwhile, Judaism has an ancestral tie to the Levant.

Judaism does, but not all Jews do.

Well, get real. If Jews are not persecuted in the USA, why 'give up' Rhode Island? In fact, why 'give up' anything at all? Living in mutual peace and prosperity are better. When one side considers it necessarily a 'loss', their reasoning has to be investigated.

Unfortunately the extreme Jewish nationalists who are currently in office in Israel routinely dehumanize Palestinians and do not want or accept peace.

Just for perspective, the world doesn't revolve around Iran either. A nuclear Israel is much less of a risk than a nuclear reactionary theocracy like Iran.

Mutually-assured-destruction.