Why does the West tolerate Israeli crimes?

[RedStar]

And where in the Koran does it say to have children blow themselves up?

My statement makes your statement irrelevant. There shouldn't be a Jewish state. Period. According to Jewish law.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

so if some steals something from you and breeds and gives it to their children its ok. the thing about theft is it taints all future exchanges of property.

Obviously. Just look at the United States.

[pjdude1219]

RedStar


The pogroms in Russia and Europe which culminated in the Holocaust shamed the world into establishing a homeland in Israel, a land that has changed hands many times over the centuries, often occupied by Arabic countries. That decision stands. Deal with the fact that Israel is there to stay and quit excusing terrorism or anti-Israeli wars which are not justified by Israeli occupation of lands won in wars they did not start. If Arabic countries would stop launching surprise attacks on Israel they might stop losing land to them. Once you launch a surprise attack you don't get a do-over when you lose. It was Arab aggression that lost them that territory, not Israeli aggression.

Given you constant beating of the dead horse of Communism, it doesn't surprise me you don't see this horse has also expired.

Grumpy

the idea that the wars weren't result of Israeli agression is absurd. Israel is one of the most aggressive states in the world.

[RedStar]

Obviously. Just look at the United States.

Lucy, the Israel situation is ongoing and the ethnic cleansing and oppression of Palestinians is happening right now.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Lucy, the Israel situation is ongoing and the ethnic cleansing and oppression of Palestinians is happening right now.

And the Israeli state and its inhabitants also exist "right now", that is not going to change. You can pose solutions but you cannot expect an established state to dismantle itself or to give back anything.

[pjdude1219]

Obviously. Just look at the United States.

um most of the us wasn't thieved from the natives but gained through treaties. one sided treaties that at times were borderline criminal. Israel was created through naked aggression. hell they wanted war as shown by the fact in the run up to the war of Israeli "independence" they were the only group steadfastly stockpiling weapons.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

um most of the us wasn't thieved from the natives but gained through treaties. one sided treaties that at times were borderline criminal. Israel was created through naked aggression. hell they wanted war as shown by the fact in the run up to the war of Israeli "independence" they were the only group steadfastly stockpiling weapons.

Treaties? LOL. The US hardly honored most of its treaties with the natives and they did indeed take the land, kill the people and then had them corralled. Or is it you believe the natives just handed over the land and then corralled themselves into reservations?

[RedStar]

And the Israeli state and its inhabitants also exist "right now", that is not going to change. You can pose solutions but you cannot expect an established state to dismantle itself or to give back anything.

I don't. I wish they could. It's what they should do. But I agree, it's unlikely to happen.

But what can be done is the dismantling of Israel as a supremacist Jewish-identity state, and the recognition of Palestinian territories as a legitimate state, and the return of all Palestinian lands illegally seized through the wars.

[pjdude1219]

And the Israeli state and its inhabitants also exist "right now", that is not going to change. You can pose solutions but you cannot expect an established state to dismantle itself or to give back anything.

bullshit we can't. your doing what all pro ISrael people are doing rewriting or ignoring laws to suit them. and no one is saying the jews don't have the right to exist but no state has the right to exist. the right to exist implies the right to be created which implies the right to deny those living there their rights to create it. and many states have been expected to return stolen lands. hell most disputed borders are the result of people thinking they have the right to steal.

I believe I have gotten into this with you in the past. you feel simply because ISrael has gotten away with its crimes this long it should continue to but I'm sorry the level of crimes Israel is commiting don't have a statute of limitations.


and before you do what you love to do don't even think of mention the "harm" done to ISraeli children by giving the palestinians their rights. you and ISrael doesn't give a fuck about how you all have harmed the palestinian chidlren.

[pjdude1219]

Treaties? LOL. The US hardly honored most of its treaties with the natives and they did indeed take the land, kill the people and then had them corralled. Or is it you believe the natives just handed over the land and then corralled themselves into reservations?

your thinking of the north western part of the states. the rest was gained more or less legally. but even still to compare the US and Israel's creation is disingenious not that you care to be honest on this topic. the state of affairs regarding international law and accepted means of territory aquisition were entirely different.

[RedStar]

Besides, the argument goes both ways. If Jews have a Right of Return, why doesn't every other nation in the world have a Right of Return? Why do Jews always get special treatment in history? Talk about bullshit.

[Buddha12]

My statement makes your statement irrelevant. There shouldn't be a Jewish state. Period. According to Jewish law.

Sorry to hear that you can't even understand that the Koran is being violated everyday and yet no one raises their hands to stop the killings of Islamic children by Islamic Fundamentalists. Where is the uproar of the masses who see that the Koran is being twisted and abused by those who only want to create problems not solutions?

[pjdude1219]

Besides, the argument goes both ways. If Jews have a Right of Return, why doesn't every other nation in the world have a Right of Return? Why do Jews always get special treatment in history? Talk about bullshit.

um other countries do have the right of return. the difference between the other countries and Israel is that you have to prove that you had people living there where as to go to Israel all you have to do is be part of the jewish faith.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

@PJ

You can't what? Pose solutions? That's the only thing one can do. White settlers in the US had the right to steal:

Here's an example of US treaties with natives

The native tribes would give up their rights to hunt and live on huge parcels of land that they had inhabited in exchange for trade goods, yearly cash annuity payments, and assurances that no further demands would be made on them. (sound familiar?)

The obvious effect of the treaty process was to speed the transfer of Indian land to white settlers.

The treaties helped set the stage for a later and more dramatic policy of Indian removal. Indians who resisted attempts by the whites to obtain Indian land via treaty arrangements found themselves facing "removal" further westward. The white settlers created Indian territories in Oklahoma and the western half of present-day South Dakota where the Indians would be out of the way of westward expansion. In 1830, President Jackson convinced the U.S. Congress to pass the Indian Removal Act that appropriated funds for relocation — by force if necessary — of Native Americans. Federal officials were sent to negotiate removal treaties with the southern tribes, many of whom reluctantly signed.

However, the Cherokees in the state of Georgia, fought their removal in the federal Supreme Court. They thought they had won when Chief Justice John Marshall ruled that the Cherokees were a "domestic dependent nation" that could not be forced by the state of Georgia to give up its land against its will. Unfortunately, President Jackson and the state of Georgia ignored the decision and moved the Native Americans to Indian Territory in Oklahoma. The Cherokees refer to their trip as "The Trail of Tears."


None of that sounds familiar to you?

PJ-I believe I have gotten into this with you in the past. you feel simply because ISrael has gotten away with its crimes this long it should continue to but I'm sorry the level of crimes Israel is commiting don't have a statute of limitations.

But american crimes do? I'm pointing out to you that this is no longer a question of one tribe fighting another tribe. Its a situation where one people are fighting a state and if you can recall a time that any state has voluntarily dismantled itself once established I would be happy to hear about it. Its about facing reality. You can question civil rights issues in Israel but you are howling at the wind if you expect the State to budge on the issue of its legitimacy. All states are legitimate simply because they exist and are globally recognized. Other nations may frown on Israeli policy but very few doubt that it exists as a legitimate state.

[RedStar]

Sorry to hear that you can't even understand that the Koran is being violated everyday and yet no one raises their hands to stop the killings of Islamic children by Islamic Fundamentalists. Where is the uproar of the masses who see that the Koran is being twisted and abused by those who only want to create problems not solutions?

Are you just going to keep blatantly ignoring my points or what?

um other countries do have the right of return. the difference between the other countries and Israel is that you have to prove that you had people living there where as to go to Israel all you have to do is be part of the jewish faith.

True. I could literally convert to Judaism tomorrow and I'd have a "right of return" even though my ancestors are Russian.

[Grumpy]

pjdude1219

the idea that the wars weren't result of Israeli agression is absurd. Israel is one of the most aggressive states in the world.

Really?

If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence. If the Israelis put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel.

Israel was attacked by Syria, Jordan and Egypt one day after the state of Israel was declared in 1948, they attacked again in 1956, 1967 and 1973. They lost big every single time, the 1973 war was a slaughter of Syrian tanks so bad they finnally learned not to do that ever again. Israel has yet to attack any of those countries, in fact the only time military forces acted outside Israel was to stop Katushka rockets from being launched from Lebanon into Israel(imagine what our response would be to organized forces launching thousands of rockets from Canada aimed at Buffalo). EVERY SINGLE WAR ISRAEL HAS HAD STARTED WITH ARAB ATTACKS ON ISRAEL. Your statement is outright lunacy.

Grumpy

[RedStar]

Grumpy, ever heard of Jewish terrorist groups such as the Irgun? They were so bad that the British even declared them an official terrorist organization. They beheaded and intimidated Palestinians and British soldiers alike.

Israel was established with that sort of terrorism from day one, and the occupation will indeed be attacked. What would you do if somebody occupied your peoples' land?

Jewish resistance to the British mandate had begun before the Second World War when Jews extremists set up an organization called, "Irgun Zvia Leumi" (IZL) or simply, "The Irgun". Their aim was to campaign for the establishment of the state of Israel.

At the outbreak of the Second World War most of the Irgun selected to support the Allies and fight the common enemy, "Nazism. "A splinter group led by a Abraham Stern decided to continue the fight against the British. This group, better known as the "Stern" gang, was responsible for many terrorist atrocities and murders in the following decade, though Stern himself was killed in a gunfight with the Palestine Police in the early 1942

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm

[pjdude1219]

pjdude1219



Really?

If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence. If the Israelis put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel.

that's myth. and a dangerous lie.

Israel was attacked by Syria, Jordan and Egypt one day after the state of Israel was declared in 1948,

while maybe technically true it a major lie of ommission. first contact between arab and Israeli forces happened outside of Israel's declared borders at the time. so trying to pretend that ISrael was just minding it own buisness and was attacked is a bald faced lie.

they attacked again in 1956, 1967 and 1973.

um at least one of those was started by a preemptive attack by ISrael so no in at least of of those instances Israel attacked first.

They lost big every single time, the 1973 war was a slaughter of Syrian tanks so bad they finnally learned not to do that ever again.

yes because of embargoes and support from the west. from day one ISrael was being aramed to be used as a strategic asset against the arabs. first be france and the UK than by the US

Israel has yet to attack any of those countries, in fact the only time military forces acted outside Israel was to stop Katushka rockets from being launched from Lebanon into Israel(imagine what our response would be to organized forces launching thousands of rockets from Canada aimed at Buffalo).

lack of a straight up military attack is not the same thing as not attacking. destablization attempt special forces and a varity of other intelligence ops could be viewed as an attack. ( like what the soviets viewed the U-2 flyovers)

EVERY SINGLE WAR ISRAEL HAS HAD STARTED WITH ARAB ATTACKS ON ISRAEL.

I have already shown that to be a falsehood but whatever if you want to believe lies that's up to you.

Your statement is outright lunacy.

why because it ignores ISraeli propaganda that ISrael is just so innocent and never wants to harm but is forced to. I'm sorry if the truth isn't cut and dry and isn't white and black.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Israel was established with that sort of terrorism from day one, and the occupation will indeed be attacked. What would you do if somebody occupied your peoples' land?

I have indeed heard of the Irgun, there were other zionist groups like that one too but what you don't see is that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how a state is established, once established it exists and it doesn't dismantle itself. Right now if you go to a map you can see Israel but you cannot see a Palestine. Israel has already won her territory, it is legitimately heres and will remain so. So instead the best approach is to address civil rights issues for palestinian, that's a fight they can win. Fighting the state's existence will only leave them with what they have now or less and they should be asking for citizenship rights in Jordan or wherever they are in refugee camps, most of the inhabitants in those camps were born there, they have no citizenship. Why doesn't the arab nations where these camps are set up give the people citizenship rights?

[RedStar]

Palestinians need their own state, or otherwise be assimilated into Israel only with the agreement that Israel will dismantle the Jewish character of the state (and rename the country).