# Thread: Photon in an acceleration field

1. Originally Posted by Prof.Layman
By the way, for the record I never sent him such equations.
Huh? If you didn't send these, then who did?

Hmm... there doesn't seem to be any message in my inbox now. It's like it disappeared... that's really strange.

Good thing I copied the equations. These are far more advanced than anything found on Google... cutting edge research stuff, maybe beyond.

Wherever they came from, I'm glad to have them, but it will take me a long time to understand them.

2. Originally Posted by Mazulu
By the way, even if tachyons or superluminal starships exist, there is no risk of violating causality or traveling back in time. Traveling back in time means you have to move every particle, object and planet back to a specific set of position and momentum states, everywhere in the universe. This is impossible. Time travel is impossible.
I flew to Las Vegas last week, and this put me 0.0000001 sec into the past relative to everyone else that stayed at home. I experienced that much less time, but most other people experienced that much more time than I did. So then I have to ask myself, if I hadn't taken that trip, would I expereince all the planets and eveything else to be in a position that is 0.0000001 sec in front of where I see them "now"? It kind of brings a whole new meaning to saving up frequent flyer miles. Sense we vary in constant motion all the time, I don't think it would even be possible for us to expereince the same "now". For the entire time we travel relative to everything else at a constant speed, our own clocks appear to tick normally at a normal rate. So in effect I would be sending you this message about 0.0000001 sec before our "now" we supposedly experienced at the same time 2 weeks ago. Your past would then be altered 0.0000001 sec in the past so then you just remember reading this in your current present.

3. Originally Posted by Prof.Layman
I flew to Las Vegas last week, and this put me 0.0000001 sec into the past relative to everyone else that stayed at home. I experienced that much less time, but most other people experienced that much more time than I did. So then I have to ask myself, if I hadn't taken that trip, would I expereince all the planets and eveything else to be in a position that is 0.0000001 sec in front of where I see them "now"? It kind of brings a whole new meaning to saving up frequent flyer miles. Sense we vary in constant motion all the time, I don't think it would even be possible for us to expereince the same "now". For the entire time we travel relative to everything else at a constant speed, our own clocks appear to tick normally at a normal rate. So in effect I would be sending you this message about 0.0000001 sec before our "now" we supposedly experienced at the same time 2 weeks ago. Your past would then be altered 0.0000001 sec in the past so then you just remember reading this in your current present.
As an electronics technician, I calibrate clocks to 1ppm of 27MHz. I remember reading how GPS satellites have their onboard clocks calibrated to adjust for time dilation effects. To me, time dilation is easier to understand in terms of clock frequencies. I know that if time travel was remotely possible, I would be looking for a way to send lotto numbers into the past. 19, 30, 48, 53, and 55. The Powerball number was 18.

4. Originally Posted by Mazulu
As an electronics technician, I calibrate clocks to 1ppm of 27MHz.
You must be very proud of your work. I have heard that they only allow the most knowledgeable and skillful technicians to adjust the clocks because of the great difficulty involved. And to be sure, it does involve aether wave theory since you are actually shifting the frequency and therefore causing small fluctuations in the earth's gravitational field as you adjust. I bet that sometimes you just adjust it back and forth, over and over, just to see if you can feel the effect. Just curious, but do they have the clock calibration technicians wear some kind of special hat or sit on a special stool or something? For some reason that is how I picture you in my mind. Cone shaped hat and a high stool.

5. Originally Posted by Cheezle
You must be very proud of your work. I have heard that they only allow the most knowledgeable and skillful technicians to adjust the clocks because of the great difficulty involved. And to be sure, it does involve aether wave theory since you are actually shifting the frequency and therefore causing small fluctuations in the earth's gravitational field as you adjust. I bet that sometimes you just adjust it back and forth, over and over, just to see if you can feel the effect. Just curious, but do they have the clock calibration technicians wear some kind of special hat or sit on a special stool or something? For some reason that is how I picture you in my mind. Cone shaped hat and a high stool.
Yes Cheezle, they laid off other technicians but they kept me because I can calibrate 27MHz clocks the best.

6. Originally Posted by Cheezle
You must be very proud of your work. I have heard that they only allow the most knowledgeable and skillful technicians to adjust the clocks because of the great difficulty involved. And to be sure, it does involve aether wave theory since you are actually shifting the frequency and therefore causing small fluctuations in the earth's gravitational field as you adjust. I bet that sometimes you just adjust it back and forth, over and over, just to see if you can feel the effect. Just curious, but do they have the clock calibration technicians wear some kind of special hat or sit on a special stool or something? For some reason that is how I picture you in my mind. Cone shaped hat and a high stool.
Can you explain to me what merit any of that post has, or how it adds any value to the discussion?

It seems that things are rapidly devolving into personal attacks rather than any reasonable discussion.

7. Originally Posted by OnlyMe
Can you explain to me what merit any of that post has, or how it adds any value to the discussion?

It seems that things are rapidly devolving into personal attacks rather than any reasonable discussion.
Well, He did bring up the off topic subject of calibrating oscilloscopes. And I did tie it into Mazulu's aether wave theory. To give proper credit where it is due, it was (by his own admission) the space aliens that gave him the theory. Mazulu is only the messenger. Also, it was no more lacking in value that one of Mazulu's posts in Religion from yesterday, where he said:

I prefer to wipe my ass with the communist manifesto.
I would think that such language would be objectionable but I guess others would disagree. What I said was quite mild in comparison. He attacked a whole group of people (communists), while I only made aspersions only toward him.

As far as reasonable discussion goes, this is Mazulu we are talking about. A person who has telepathic communication with space aliens and thinks that he can build a gravity beam by turning on an array of colored LEDs in sequence over and over. And that his aether wave theory can account for this gravity beam, and also construct such things as disintegration rays, FTL travel, and infinite free energy. And anything else that he can imagine (and he has a very active imagination). So reasonable was never really in the cards for this thread. If Mazulu was to try and join the International Order of Cranks, they would not allow him membership on the basis that he is too nutty.

But if you want to discuss Mazulu's aether wave theory and his gravity beam idea, please do. Please have your reasonable discussion with him. We need more entertainment.

8. Originally Posted by Cheezle
Well, He did bring up the off topic subject of calibrating oscilloscopes.
No, I never said that I calibrate oscilloscopes; I calibrate a 27 MHz clock (one of a million things I do at my job). I brought up clocks to talk about time dilation, which is fair game on this thread.
And I did tie it into Mazulu's aether wave theory. To give proper credit where it is due, it was (by his own admission) the space aliens that gave him the theory. Mazulu is only the messenger. Also, it was no more lacking in value that one of Mazulu's posts in Religion from yesterday, where he said:
Off topic attack.
I would think that such language would be objectionable but I guess others would disagree. What I said was quite mild in comparison. He attacked a whole group of people (communists), while I only made aspersions only toward him.
Off topic attack.
As far as reasonable discussion goes, this is Mazulu we are talking about. A person who has telepathic communication with space aliens and thinks that he can build a gravity beam by turning on an array of colored LEDs in sequence over and over. And that his aether wave theory can account for this gravity beam, and also construct such things as disintegration rays, FTL travel, and infinite free energy. And anything else that he can imagine (and he has a very active imagination). So reasonable was never really in the cards for this thread. If Mazulu was to try and join the International Order of Cranks, they would not allow him membership on the basis that he is too nutty.
Very strong gravity acceleration fields (caused by gravity, etc.) cause light to frequency shift. It's called gravitational redshift. All I said was that we should see if it works in reverse. For this, I am attacked by Cheezle with with off topic content.
But if you want to discuss Mazulu's aether wave theory and his gravity beam idea, please do. Please have your reasonable discussion with him. We need more entertainment.
I was having an intelligent conversation with somebody else about time dilation until you butted in with off topic attacks. Go away.

9. I was having an intelligent conversation

10. Originally Posted by Mazulu
For this, I am attacked by Cheezle with with off topic content.

I was having an intelligent conversation with somebody else about time dilation until you butted in with off topic attacks. Go away.
No, you weren't. You have been making vapid assertions, making logically inconsistent claims, declaring your information comes from god and aliens, making demonstrably false assertions about known physics and showing you couldn't do even the most basic of relevant mathematics. Even your 'experiment' doesn't do as you think it does. You haven't offered anything intelligent.

11. Originally Posted by Cheezle
Well, He did bring up the off topic subject of calibrating oscilloscopes. And I did tie it into Mazulu's aether wave theory. To give proper credit where it is due, it was (by his own admission) the space aliens that gave him the theory. Mazulu is only the messenger. Also, it was no more lacking in value that one of Mazulu's posts in Religion from yesterday, where he said:

I would think that such language would be objectionable but I guess others would disagree. What I said was quite mild in comparison. He attacked a whole group of people (communists), while I only made aspersions only toward him.

As far as reasonable discussion goes, this is Mazulu we are talking about. A person who has telepathic communication with space aliens and thinks that he can build a gravity beam by turning on an array of colored LEDs in sequence over and over. And that his aether wave theory can account for this gravity beam, and also construct such things as disintegration rays, FTL travel, and infinite free energy. And anything else that he can imagine (and he has a very active imagination). So reasonable was never really in the cards for this thread. If Mazulu was to try and join the International Order of Cranks, they would not allow him membership on the basis that he is too nutty.

But if you want to discuss Mazulu's aether wave theory and his gravity beam idea, please do. Please have your reasonable discussion with him. We need more entertainment.
I think that's a very good analysis. High entertainment value also.

12. Originally Posted by AlphaNumeric
No, you weren't. You have been making vapid assertions, making logically inconsistent claims, declaring your information comes from god and aliens, making demonstrably false assertions about known physics and showing you couldn't do even the most basic of relevant mathematics. Even your 'experiment' doesn't do as you think it does. You haven't offered anything intelligent.
Biased and irrational attack from someone who doesn't want a discussion. impartiality does not exist.

13. Originally Posted by Mazulu
Biased and irrational attack from someone who doesn't want a discussion. impartiality does not exist.
Impartiality does not mean humoring the insane.

14. Hah! Now that's a memorable quip!

15. Originally Posted by Mazulu
Biased and irrational attack from someone who doesn't want a discussion. impartiality does not exist.
I want a discussion, I just want it to be rational and informed. I want you to provide justification beyond "I asked aliens". I want you to accept when you make demonstrable errors, either of logic or about experimentally observed facts. I want you to provide a quantitative model with a clear derivation from stated postulates/assumptions. I want you to do something other than assert things you think you get from some direct line to your god. I want you to accept that human common sense is not the be all and end all of scientific procedure. I want you to accept you hold self contradictory views in places. I want you to be able to accept you're not infallible, which is what this direct line to your god you think you have makes you.

I'm all for rational, honest, informed discussion. The problem is you are not. So, can you provide any of those things?

16. Originally Posted by AlphaNumeric
I'm all for rational, honest, informed discussion. The problem is you are not. So, can you provide any of those things?
Exactly. Mazulu's problem is that he backs up his claims with valid equations (from wikipedia). But he does not provide any logical thread that connects those ideas together. He has no concept of proof, inductive, deductive or otherwise. In fact, his main theme is that math is not necessary, and therefore logic is unnecessary. And when logic is unnecessary, rationality is moot. Mazulu is anti-science, anti-mathematics and anti-logic. Nothing he says on this forum is of any use to anyone. He has no business in SciForums. (notice the first 3 letters sci).

All of this could change if he changes. But I doubt that is possible. Can you change Mazulu?

17. Originally Posted by AlphaNumeric
I want a discussion, I just want it to be rational and informed. I want you to provide justification beyond "I asked aliens". I want you to accept when you make demonstrable errors, either of logic or about experimentally observed facts. I want you to provide a quantitative model with a clear derivation from stated postulates/assumptions.
You want me to give you a string theory mathematical model, which is completely unnecessary.
I want you to do something other than assert things you think you get from some direct line to your god.
You are perpetuating a bogus argument from a slanted point of view.
I want you to accept that human common sense is not the be all and end all of scientific procedure.
I had professors of physics who told me to look at the mathematics to see if it makes sense. If the mathematics is telling you that you can create anti-photons that carry information into the past, then clearly there is something wrong with the math.

Let me go over this again. Gravitational redshift is when each photon frequency shifts as it traverses the radii of a gravitating object like a planet, star, neutron star or black hole. It should make sense that the photon will gain energy (blue shift) as it falls along the radii. If it is escaping the gravitating object, along the radii, it has to lose energy. Since the energy of a photon is E = hf, a loss of energy means that it loses frequency as well.

Gravitational time dilation tells you that the progression of time slows down as a photon falls along the radii of a black hole. Why? Besides the fact that this is calculated to be so by general relativity, the other reason you have to take some time to think about. I will try to set up the thought experiment. You can't build a tower on a neutron star or a black hole because gravity forces would crush the tower. But if you could, you could set up a function generator/amplifier/antenna at the top of the tower. The antenna would direct waves from the frequency generator down to the bottom of the tower/base of the tower. The waves would effectively travel (fall) along the radii to the base. At the base, there is an antenna that detects the incoming waves. The waves are counted by a frequency counter.

I can program the function generator to emit 100MHz for 1 microsecond. With high confidence, I can expect to emit 100 cycles of electromagnetic radiation which travels down to the base, where the frequency counter is. If nothing deflects or blocks the 100 cycles, then my frequency counter at the base should measure 100 cycles as well. Nothing odd so far.

Here is where it gets weird. A rock that falls in an acceleration field is expected to accelerate and increase its velocity and kinetic energy, as if it was obtaining energy from the gravity field. It is a surprise to many people that photons also increase their energy as they fall in an acceleration field; there are still many people who don't know that gravity acts on light as well as matter. Gravitational time dilation is the surprising truth that gravity acts on light as well as matter. Every photon emitted from the top of the tower is going to gain energy as it falls to the base. But a photon's energy is nothing more than E=hf. So it wouldn't be too surprising that 100 cycles of 100MHz radiation, emitted from the top, could be received as 100 cycles of 200MHz radiation. Would it? From that top to the bottom, yes, you get more energy at the base. But you don't get more photons. You also don't get more waves; you only get the 100 waves that you emitted. But those 100 waves have more energy now because gravity acts on photons (electromagnet radiation). Gravitational time dilation is a stunning shocker that surprises us.

In the 1979 movie, Black Hole, by Disney, there was nothing about gravitational time dilation. A black hole was just this whirl pool looking thing that swallowed everything in real time. I heard it from Hawkins that time slows down as you approach the event horizon. There are some people who think that time stops at the event horizon. So what is the big deal about time slowing down? When I thought about it, it seemed like nature was disavowing the idea that matter and light gain energy as it falls into the gravity well of a black hole. Why? Because if 100 cycles can be detected at the base of the tower as 200MHz, then what we really have is $\Theta_{top}= \Theta_{bottom}=f_{top}\Delta t_{top}=f_{bottom}\Delta t_{bottom}$.

Summary: the frequency detected at the base is double because falling objects acquire more energy as they fall; kinetic energy of matter increases as it falls. But time slows down in such a way that $\frac{\Delta t_{bottom}}{\Delta t_{top}} = \frac{f_{top}}{f_{bottom}}$. I have what looks like gravitational time dilation and gravitational redshift in the same equation. But why would nature do that? The only reason I can think of is that gravity conserves energy, of the photon, by slowing time down. It does this in such a way that the number of cycles of EM radiation is the same (emitted at the top and detected at the bottom).

This is what gave me the idea that nature was doing something peculiar with EM radiation "cycles", time dilation and frequency shifting. This is what gave me the idea that the acceleration of gravity (across some distance) is coupled to frequency shift of EM waves. So I had the idea that it might work the other way (with some efficiency <1.0).

If $g=2.9 trillion$ g's of g-force, across a distance of 300 meters could induce a frequency shift from f to 2f, then perhaps it will work in reverse as some very tiny efficiency. By efficiency, I mean that a frequency shift from f to 2f, across 300 meters, might be able to induce a very small efficiency of 10^{-12}*g g's of g-force. Better technique could improve efficiency.

If you still don't understand, try to remember that it is a conceptual argument, not a mathematical argument. As a metaphor, the leader of a nation can easily overcome (kill) one enemy soldier; however, under very special circumstances, one enemy soldier can defeat the leader of a nation. It comes down to the details of the special circumstances.

18. An analogy. The gas laws describe a system of volume, pressure and temperature. Change any one of these and the others have to compensate. Lower the volume and the temperature and pressure go up. I think that this system is very similar to your idea of the photon and frequency shift and acceleration. It would seem that they have a similar interaction.

But that is not what your experiment does. A similar experiment for the gas laws would be to have an array of sealed air chambers on a flatbed train car, and expect that as they roll past your laboratory you measure a change in temperature. If the chambers pass by starting with the large and progressing to the small, your thinking would have the expected results that the small chamber would have gotten hotter, but that is obviously not going to happen.

Now I am sure you are going to say that is not a good analogy. However it really is. You see in your experiment you send out this chirped EM wave (or sequenced colored LED light) and expect this to simulate a photon shifting frequency. But it does not look any thing like a photon shifting frequency. It looks more like those chambers on a flatbed train car rolling by. In fact you could say your beam is a train of different frequency photons. It looks nothing like a single photon shifting frequency.

19. Originally Posted by Cheezle
An analogy. The gas laws describe a system of volume, pressure and temperature. Change any one of these and the others have to compensate. Lower the volume and the temperature and pressure go up. I think that this system is very similar to your idea of the photon and frequency shift and acceleration. It would seem that they have a similar interaction.
The ideal gas law has nothing to do with gravity and light. But thank you for your contribution from middle school science. It brings back so many fond memories.

20. Originally Posted by Mazulu
The ideal gas law has nothing to do with gravity and light. But thank you for your contribution from middle school science. It brings back so many fond memories.
As I said it was an analogy. I realize it does not have to do with light and gravity. If it did then it would not be an analogy. Analogies are useful and I have seen you use them before too. The point was that your experiment does not do what you think it does. I have said that before. And AlphaNumeric said:
Even your 'experiment' doesn't do as you think it does.
You should listen to him and brucep and others here. They are your best bet at getting some expert advice. And I know that you know that. The space aliens are not going to be of any help at all. And you do need help. Boy do you ever need help.

You really should look at this aspect of your simulated frequency shift experiment. At the very least look into other analogous experiments were similar methods were used (if any). Or just get off your duff and do the experiment. If it works then you can scream eureka. However be aware that when it fails, you will blame some part of your apparatus or some minor feature of your methodology. And then you iterate the experiment. And over and over with no results ever to your liking. I have seen this happen before. Some people never give up and never succeed. I think this will be your experience since you can never believe the space aliens or god would lie to you.

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