A scientific test of paranormal ability, right here on sciforums!

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by kwhilborn, Jun 10, 2012.

  1. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,088
    Moderator note: This thead has been split from [thread=96381]the trolling issue[/thread].
    ----

    Trolling truly does exist in the paranormal forum.

    There are a number of self appointed "paranormal police" who despite their lack of interest in the paranormal take it upon themselves to "correct" the demonistic or unscientific views of every single post. It is rare to find a few sides of a discussion there without wading through half a dozen naysayers yelling about the fake James Randi million dollar offer etc.

    In a perfect world a person who started a thread in the paranormal section would have the ability to ban people not contributing to the discussion, and are just there to police the views that paranormal science is untrue.

    Imagine for a second that radio waves do exist, but Tesla and Marconi have not discovered them yet. Imagine people wanted a place where they could discuss the science behind such communication a "sci(ence)forum" even. The discussions cannot seriously go on as every 2nd poster is either a "paranormal police" trying to compensate for their lack of something by lording their majority viewpoints, or is some schizophrenic with truly crazy notions that an alien put antennas in their head.

    The trolling will always continue there imo, as even this website administrator can be found trolling there on occasion.

    When I was referring to radio waves it was a metaphor for psychic energy. A mere century ago (and a bit) radio waves would be laughed off of sciforums and placed in the paranormal section (or worse). Many feel that we now know everything when it comes to this avenue of science.

    The vast majority of the world believes in telepathy. I have seen truly unexplained incidents of it, that are startling when you see them firsthand. I do profit from the paranormal industry as I run a membership based paranormal website that is popular with many. I am also a (unemployed/retired/unsure) Engineer.

    If someone said "americans do not shoot innocents" as suggested in this OP, I do not think that would be considered trolling. If someone said, "Woohoo telepathy does not exist. Woohoo, try contacting the James Randi association if you can prove telepathy and you can win a million dollars. woohoo, woohoo, woohoo." that is trolling. James Randi's bet is safe as he can explain anything off as random chance no matter what odds it defies.

    This website could use a moderator that removes all "paranormal police" from that section via deletes or banning members from that area (if possible), or allowing people who start threads to remove posts or ban members from the thread (if possible). These will be possible in the future in my opinion.

    (Note: Starting Tuesday I will be at my cottage and offline except through my phone for three weeks. Have a good month all.)
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Rav Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,422
    Good. Every single subforum in this place is contextualized by it's greater purpose, which is to discuss science and how science intersects with other topics. As such, no-one gives a shit if the people who want to discuss paranormal experiences or ideas are unhappy because they are subjected to rigorous and rational scrutiny. Really, it's like finding a paranormal site that has a science subforum (as rare as that may be), and then bitching about the fact that the scientific explanations you put forward to explain paranormal phenomena are scrutinized by those who prefer supernatural explanations. Of course that is going to happen. Look at where you are, for fucks sake.

    If you want to discuss paranormal issues amongst like-minded individuals who, instead of being understandably sceptical, are going to say things like "WOW, cool" and then proceed to enthusiastically share their own similar experiences and/or ideas, then go find a forum where that sort of unbridled acceptance is the norm. This is not the place for you.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,397
    Which fake James Randi offer would that be?

    There's only one offer I'm aware of. The million dollars has been confirmed to be sitting in an account waiting to be collected at any time.

    I'd say the real fakers are way too scared of havign their reputations damaged to submit themselves to any kind of rigorous and fair scientific test.

    You obviously don't have the first clue about how randomised trials work. There's no explaining away to be done in those tests. The claimant either performs as expected by random chance, or s/he "defies the odds" and gets remarkably accurate (or inaccurate) results.

    The fairness of Randi's tests is ALWAYS agreed in advance by the claimant. The conditions of the test are negotiated until agreement is reached that the test is fair.

    You're quite wrong. Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism in the late 19th century was immediately accepted by the scientific community. That theory predicted the existence of an electromagnetic spectrum consisting of waves of many frequencies. It's major triumph was its description of visible light as an electromagnetic wave.

    Once visible light was confirmed to be an electromagnetic wave, people were immediately on the lookout for other kinds of electromagnetic energy in different regions of the spectrum.

    The notion of radio waves at that time would have been a sensible extrapolation from an already remarkable and successful scientific theory.

    In contrast, "psychic energy" isn't even a clearly-defined phenomenon. What kind of energy is it, exactly? What is carrying this energy? How would we go about detecting it objectively?

    And apart from the problem of definition, there's an even worse problem: psychic energy, whatever it is, appears to have no consequences in the real world. There's just no evidence that it exists at all. If nothing requires a psychic explanation, then the idea that psychic energy exists is killed by Occam's razor.

    Yeah, and about 50% of Americans believe that the human species was created by God ex nihilo in its present form some time in the past 6000 years or so.

    Unexplained is not the same as unexplainable. You are making an argument from personal incredulity: "I can't figure out how that happened naturally, so it can't have a natural explanation."

    You just want a section where claims are not subjected to scientific scrutiny or methods. That won't be happening on sciforums any time soon.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,088
    @ James R,

    I am unsure if you are familiar with the old psychic gameshow hosted by James Randi, but there are many episodes on youtube. He has made a good living as a professional skeptic.

    The flaw with the James Randi experiment is that is is completely unwinnable by someone with psychic abilities.

    a) Imagine you could read the mind of anyone you concentrated upon. Word for word, no errors. 100% accuracy.

    b) Now imagine you went to claim the prize from James Randi. You did 100 tests and each test was 100% accurate.

    c) James Randi then claims you guessed, subliminally influenced the thoughts, or some other such excuse. His tests on his show were hardly scientific and used peculiar subjects who probably just wanted 5 minutes of fame.

    I, you, or anyone can defy the laws of probabilities using the experiment I outlined in the opening post of this thread 5 years ago. It is not just easy, but it is VERY easy.

    Unfortunately defying the laws of probabilities are not acceptable as proof to the James Randi Foundation whom I was in contact with over 15 years ago on that topic.

    Maybe if someone could achieve 100% waking success James Randi would be forced to concede, however I am unsure that kind of success would be possible.

    @ James R,
    I am well aware you feel there is an explanation behind everything I and others claim to have seen defying probabilities. That is sad from my point of view; as it limits your understanding of the world immensely.
    I do not know what psychic energy is. I have only seen it work repeatably. I do feel there is a rational explanation for what occurs, but I can bet that it will never be found through discussions on sciforums (which is sad).
    I also understand that this belief makes me seem crazy to some, however I have seen it relay complete messages and feel bad that most of you are too caught up in your own belief systems that you would not even spend a few hours trying the experiment from the OP. I really feel sorry for you.

    Imagine if James R did this opening post experiment and it worked, and he repeated it and it worked again, and again, and again. It is within the realm of possibilities imho.

    Sending telepathic thoughts to influence someones dreams or wake them up on a random day at a random time is not just easy, it is VERY, VERY, EASY. Grab a friend and try it. It will work.
     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    Maybe that's just psychic energy's way of revealing itself to you.
     
  9. BWE1 Rulers are for measuring. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    Im sending a telepathic thought right now!
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,397
    kwhilborn:

    I'm unaware of the show you're referring to, but if it worked like that then it is nothing like Randi's $1 million challenge. Here's how that would work:

    a) You claim you can read somebody's mind with 100% accuracy.
    b) Somebody (not Randi) hides a ball under one of ten numbered cups, remembering of course where the ball was. Randi is not involved in this and does not see which cup the ball was hidden in. While this is being done you, as the test subject, are in a separate room.
    c) You are brought into the room with the cups and there the person who hid the ball keeps in his mind which cup the ball is under.
    d) You try to read the person's mind and pick the correct cup. Your success or failure is recorded.
    e) This procedure is repeated a number of times, sufficient to establish reasonable statistics for the test (e.g. 20 times, say).
    f) Once entire test is over, the statistics are done as to how many you should have got right by chance (1 in 10 chance, 20 tries, gives 2 for the example I just gave). The probabilities that you would get more than 2 right are calculable.
    g) There will have been a pre-existing agreement between yourself and Randi as to your own claimed accuracy (e.g. "I will get more than 10 right out of 20" or "I am a perfect mind reader and I will get all 20 right.".)
    h) Your performance on the actual test is compared with the criteria you agreed to in (g), since that is what you said you could do.
    i) You pass or fail the overall test.
    j) If you pass, you repeat the test one more time for the formal record (to prove that the first time wasn't just a statistical fluke). Then, you get $1 million.

    So far, no applicant has ever got to repeating the test in step (j), because all applicants have failed in steps (h) and (i).

    Note that James Randi is not involved in the testing or evaluation of results at all, other than in establishing the initial test protocol and coming to an agreement with you as the claimant as to what is a fair test of what you claim you can do.

    It goes without saying that anybody who could actually read minds with 100% accuracy (or even 75%, say) could easily claim the million. (In the example I just gave, even 75% accuracy would mean 15 out of 20 tries correct - far in excess of what we'd expect by chance.)

    That's a complete and utter lie.

    What did you claim you could do, and what test protocol was negotiated in your case?

    100% success is not required. Just success significantly in excess of chance, demonstrably and repeatably.

    Give me some examples. What have you seen? Are these things reliable and repeatable? If so, why can't you demonstrate then for me right here?

    If you claim to be able to read minds, read my mind. Or, we can set up a protocol and test you right here on sciforums. That's as long as your mind reading works at a long distance. Does it?

    Great! Then you should be able to give me a demo. Right?

    You know what I think you'll do? I think you'll come up with a ton of excuses as to why you can't show me your claimed abilities. Or how they aren't yours but somebody else's, and they aren't available, or they can't show me, or whatever. That will be how it goes.

    Great! We can set up a test with volunteer sciforums members.

    Are you in?
     
  11. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,105
    kwhilborn:

    If you could read minds (without the aid of any attendants or machines), then the likelihood is you'd blow Randi's challenge off and make multiple millions in the casino's around the world. You would probably get barred by such establishments over time however it wouldn't matter, as your notoriety would be far more acceptable as proof than attempting a sideshow challenge. As for double blinds, well that's really down to the Pit Bosses now isn't it?

    Currently the only people that go this method are Card counters, which in essence it just a form of cold reading as opposed to mind reading.
     
  12. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    I volunteer to be part of the experiment!
     
  13. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,862
    I'm protected!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  14. BWE1 Rulers are for measuring. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    Ha! My telepathic thought was that someone should post a pic of a head covered in tinfoil! Nothing can protect you.
     
  15. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,134
    If we are delving into an investigation on telepathy we need a temporary sub-forum until we can classify telepathy with all the other sciences. This will be a project, and at 99.9% success rate not being suitable for proof we have our work cut out for us. Don't come here if you don't have ideas to test, or theory. I stayed with schizophrenic patients, I watched them be medicated every day. I watched people held down by a team of 6 or 7 doctors and forcefully injected with medication.

    I think a "Temp-subforum: Investigation into Telepathy" could get this started on the right foot, what do people think?

    We prove this here, link this on yahoo, or google and sciforums will blow up. Maybe we can put out a message about what we are testing here?
     
  16. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,134
    This is manipulation, non-ethical. Asserting yourself into anthers mind can be very very dangerous. Hold conversations with every day people, they react.
     
  17. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,134
    Im going to move on to extracting thoughts from choice citizens.

    My morality is this.
    A. People are wicked, some people.
    B. I can read facial expressions to a t, I learned this with my telepathy. So I apply facial recognition to identify my subjects. Being people with certain tells to them which would indicate one of two things, either a moral issue in which they are a victim, or the perpetrator.
    C. Given this I know I am either helping someone in need, or I am closing in on a sexual predator, or thief, etc.

    After I extract a usable thought, or knowledge of a unknown happening I will post it here.

    More to come.
     
  18. BWE1 Rulers are for measuring. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    Wonderful. I love your morality starts with a proposition.
     
  19. BWE1 Rulers are for measuring. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    People cant be wicked by the way. Map-terrain.
     
  20. BWE1 Rulers are for measuring. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    Don,t let my irrelevant comment there derail a perfectly interesting investigation though.
     
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,397
    Well, it looks like kwhilborn has done what I predicted he would do.

    He has flat-out refused to participate in the current thread. See his post here:

    [post]2947086[/post]

    I think it's because he has nothing to offer in the way of a real psychic demonstration.

    ----

    Does anybody else here have psychic powers they would be willing and able to test on sciforums?
     
  22. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,134
    Propose to me a sensible test. How about I tell you about my next post? A little bit of a leap into the lake below, if you know what I mean.
     
  23. Epictetus here & now Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    A More Sensible Test:

    I'm thinking of a number between one and twenty-five. What is it?
     

Share This Page