Origin and meaning of life.

[sigurdV]

Life is matter and is made of matter. New matter is not being formed. So we can only consume as much as is actually available.

I think the scientific method is the best method to model reality.

I agree... When theres no free energy left there remains for life only to consume itself ... This situation is far away in the future...
There are grand scale theories involving the far future but as far as I know they dont consider the situation described.
Its anomalous and I simply expect that an alternative to suicide will show up. The sign "Exit".

[Neverfly]

I agree... When theres no free energy left there remains for life only to consume itself ... This situation is far away in the future...
There are grand scale theories involving the far future but as far as I know they dont consider the situation described.
Its anomalous and I simply expect that an alternative to suicide will show up. The sign "Exit".

The images you just put in my head of a Universe chock full of starving life forms, salivating while staring at that exit sign, dreaming of the infinite goodies beyond...

Might make for some interesting sci fi short stories from some of the more talented writers on the board...

[sigurdV]

The images you just put in my head of a Universe chock full of starving life forms, salivating while staring at that exit sign, dreaming of the infinite goodies beyond...

Might make for some interesting sci fi short stories from some of the more talented writers on the board...

LOL!

Oh how I yearn to read that story!
Maybe some janitor have locked it?
And ...

[Yazata]

What reality do we live in

This one.

and what is the meaning in that?

What's a "meaning"?

Words and symbols have meanings, but I'm not convinced that the universe is a word or a symbol that refers to or connotes anything other than itself.

And "meaning" in this context often seems to suggest teleology or purpose or a cosmic goal of some kind. I'm skeptical about that.

Are there more explanations than Creationism and Atheism to consider?

I don't think that human beings are even close to having the "explanation" for the universe. I'm not even sure what a satisfactory explanation might look like.

Its often said that the universe by definition is all there is, but we have seen faulty definitions before:

That's nother problem -- defining the word "universe".

As you suggest, one possibility is 'all there is'.

Another possibility, which I tend to favor, is something like 'continuous space-time manifold'.

Imagine we are Doctor Who and have a Tardis capable of visiting very point in spacetime that's reachable by traversing a continuous space-time line between where we are at and the destination point. Are there any places and times where we couldn't go?

In other words, I'm inclined to label sets of dimensional points that aren't reachable by any continuous path from right-here, 'different universes'.

That's a weaker sense of 'universe' than the 'all there is' sense.

[sigurdV]

Hi Yazata!

The meaning of meaning has been (perhaps not altogether satisfyingly) been answered.

So the meaning of "The meaning of life" can be approached.

There are but two standard explanations coming into my mind.

1 There is no meaning,the universe (and life) just happened.
2 The universe was intentionally created by someone and the creators intention is the meaning of life.

What I do is identifying the meaning of life with the function of life!


That means I must show a possible function life can fulfil or not...

So I claim that life is created in order to carry the natural laws of our universe into other universes.

And that far away in the future life will be forced to find its way out of the universe.

Because there will be no free energy left in it and the alternative is suicide by life consuming itself.

I guess its Darwinism of some sort

[sigurdV]

Yep. And that door stoop seems pretty old and worn. I wonder why people keep coming back to this blind alley.

What door stoop? What blind alley?

[spidergoat]

What reality do we live in and what is the meaning in that?

Are there more explanations than Creationism and Atheism to consider?

Possibly Darwinism can be of use:

If life is part of a reproduction process... say life consumes most its energy and thereby finds a way out of the universe ... and in arriving there causes a new universe with the same natural laws as the deserted universe.
Then life has a meaning: Life is how our universe spreads its natural laws to other universes.

Pure speculation of course, but are the alternatives better off?

Its often said that the universe by definition is all there is, but we have seen faulty definitions before: There is no highest natural number so why should there be a largest natural universe?

Can we point to other objekts that are unique? Isnt every objekt similar but not identical to other objects! Is there any other reason for believing that there is only one universe than that we always thought so?

We live in this reality apparently. It has no meaning. Even if life did spread into other universes that is not the same as saying that is the meaning of life. In other words, what life does is not what life means. Creationism is ridiculous and atheism is just the beginning of knowledge. Anyway, we cannot travel faster than light, so we will never leave this reality.

[kx000]

What reality do we live in and what is the meaning in that?

Are there more explanations than Creationism and Atheism to consider?

Possibly Darwinism can be of use:

If life is part of a reproduction process... say life consumes most its energy and thereby finds a way out of the universe ... and in arriving there causes a new universe with the same natural laws as the deserted universe.
Then life has a meaning: Life is how our universe spreads its natural laws to other universes.

Pure speculation of course, but are the alternatives better off?

Its often said that the universe by definition is all there is, but we have seen faulty definitions before: There is no highest natural number so why should there be a largest natural universe?

Can we point to other objekts that are unique? Isnt every objekt similar but not identical to other objects! Is there any other reason for believing that there is only one universe than that we always thought so?

How about we go forth to our death one by one like we do anyways? We can make the world great, but instead we hold ourselves back with war, and rape. Literally life is growth. If you stop growing your dead.

[sigurdV]

We live in this reality apparently. It has no meaning. Even if life did spread into other universes that is not the same as saying that is the meaning of life. In other words, what life does is not what life means. Creationism is ridiculous and atheism is just the beginning of knowledge. Anyway, we cannot travel faster than light, so we will never leave this reality.

You say that life has no meaning...How do you mean? What is it life has not?
Than you say that what life does is not what life means. How do you PROVE that? Isnt that only your own opinion?
And what has the speed of light to do with leaving this universe?
But I agree that religion, atheism included, are ridiculous

[sigurdV]

How about we go forth to our death one by one like we do anyways?

Sounds ok...

We can make the world great, but instead we hold ourselves back with war, and rape.

Perhaps you make war and rape.. I dont. And the world is improving: Now not every american is christian.

Literally life is growth. If you stop growing your dead.

In the future it might be replaced with: Life is continuous repair.
Ilya Prigogine gave a good thermodynamic definition of life: Life is a dissipative system far from equilibrium.

[spidergoat]

You say that life has no meaning...How do you mean? What is it life has not?
Than you say that what life does is not what life means. How do you PROVE that? Isnt that only your own opinion?
And what has the speed of light to do with leaving this universe?
But I agree that religion, atheism included, are ridiculous

Atheism isn't a religion.

Individuals can have meaning, but life as a whole does not. There is no direction to evolution, all life forms are simply taking advantage of resources. The various religious narratives that claim to describe a purpose cannot be shown to be true. That only leaves one option, that there is no meaning. It's up to those making the claim to show that there is.

[sigurdV]

Atheism isn't a religion.

Whether atheism is a religion or not depends on the definition of religion. I knew it would provoke you into a post. (He he.) Most atheists in here are reformed christians and they have difficulties in changing their basic attitudes and clean themselves from what made them religiouos. They treat atheism as a religion whether it is or not. So Im sorry if I make fun of your religious beliefs. But you should be aware of that there is no proof of the non existence of anything except contradictory objects. And that proof rests on logic which might be contradicted by empirical facts: Say...That chair is not a chair its an arcturian shape transformer waiting for you to sit down for dinner.

Also I note that you treat Darwinism as a religion...you really are a sad case of religious piety. There are no definitions but your definitions and you are their only interpreter. Admit it! You itch to burn my text

[Saturnine Pariah]

Whether atheism is a religion or not depends on the definition of religion. I knew it would provoke you into a post. (He he.) Most atheists in here are reformed christians and they have difficulties in changing their basic attitudes and clean themselves from what made them religiouos. They treat atheism as a religion whether it is or not. So Im sorry if I make fun of your religious beliefs. But you should be aware of that there is no proof of the non existence of anything except contradictory objects. And that proof rests on logic which might be contradicted by empirical facts: Say...That chair is not a chair its an arcturian shape transformer waiting for you to sit down for dinner.

Also I note that you treat Darwinism as a religion...you really are a sad case of religious piety. There are no definitions but your definitions and you are their only interpreter. Admit it! You itch to burn my text

Do you have any empirical, objective, tangible evidence for your claims of Darwinism or Atheism being religions? If you do, please preset such data for our view. If not then you have wasted your time trying to discredict/insult Sir Spidergoat. Good day to you sir.

[spidergoat]

Whether atheism is a religion or not depends on the definition of religion. I knew it would provoke you into a post. (He he.) Most atheists in here are reformed christians and they have difficulties in changing their basic attitudes and clean themselves from what made them religiouos. They treat atheism as a religion whether it is or not. So Im sorry if I make fun of your religious beliefs. But you should be aware of that there is no proof of the non existence of anything except contradictory objects. And that proof rests on logic which might be contradicted by empirical facts: Say...That chair is not a chair its an arcturian shape transformer waiting for you to sit down for dinner.

Also I note that you treat Darwinism as a religion...you really are a sad case of religious piety. There are no definitions but your definitions and you are their only interpreter. Admit it! You itch to burn my text

I itch only to reply to your misunderstandings. There doesn't have to be proof that there isn't a God. I don't claim to know whether there is a God or not with 100% certainty. That makes me an agnostic.

I also don't believe there is a God the same way I don't believe there are fairies or leprechauns. No one has ever suggested a reason why I should. That makes me an atheist.

But sometimes lack of evidence is evidence that something does not exist, what that something should have left evidence due to it's physical interactions with the world. The Christian/Jewish/Muslim God is a figure that I think can be said to not exist beyond a reasonable doubt based on evidence that should be there but isn't. This isn't totally certain, but it's well within the standards of science. Victor Stenger has written a book about this. Note that this doesn't debunk all possible Gods, only the most common monotheism.

I do often object to those people who say Atheism is simply a lack of belief. In reality, it's accompanied by beliefs in all sorts of things, the efficacy of science, humanistic values, religious freedom, etc... But beliefs aren't religion. Atheism isn't based on faith that there isn't a God. If such evidence could be produced, I would welcome it. My concern is the truth whatever that might turn out to be.

[Grumpy]

spidergoat

I do often object to those people who say Atheism is simply a lack of belief. In reality, it's accompanied by beliefs in all sorts of things, the efficacy of science, humanistic values, religious freedom, etc... But beliefs aren't religion. Atheism isn't based on faith that there isn't a God. If such evidence could be produced, I would welcome it. My concern is the truth whatever that might turn out to be.

But Atheism IS simply a lack of belief(lack of acceptance of)any god concept as being valid based on reason, and that IS all it is. Everything else is philosophy and Atheism is not a philosophy, it is a position in regard to acceptance(as truth)of proposed theist philosophies, period. Atheists often are Humanistic, scientifically informed and likely start out closer to truth(mainly because they don't have to "unlearn" supernatural garbage thinking), but that is not true of all Atheists, some of whom were just as nasty as the religious often are(IE religion or lack thereof has little to do with being good or bad actors in society).

Grumpy

[kx000]

Sounds ok...
Perhaps you make war and rape.. I dont. And the world is improving: Now not every american is christian. In the future it might be replaced with: Life is continuous repair.
Ilya Prigogine gave a good thermodynamic definition of life: Life is a dissipative system far from equilibrium.

I dont make war or rape. I see war brewing. I see rapist on the streets. Im not Christian, and im not pro democracy, nor capitalism. I was born in America and I'll deal with the best system the world has going, which isn't all that good. Life is growth.

[Buddha12]

The purpose of life is a life of purpose.

~Attributed to both Ludwig Wittgenstein and Robert Byrne



I think I've discovered the secret of life - you just hang around until you get used to it.

~Charles Schulz


We are born wet, naked, and hungry. Then things get worse.

~Author Unknown


To live remains an art which everyone must learn, and which no one can teach.

~Havelock Ellis


In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life. It goes on.

~Robert Frost


The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe, to match your nature with Nature.

~Joseph Campbell


When we are alone on a starlit night, when by chance we see the migrating birds in autumn descending on a grove of junipers to rest and eat; when we see children in a moment when they are really children, when we know love in our own hearts; or when, like the Japanese poet, Basho, we hear an old frog land in a quiet pond with a solitary splash - at such times the awakening, the turning inside out of all values, the "newness," the emptiness and the purity of vision that make themselves evident, all these provide a glimpse of the cosmic dance. ~Thomas Merton

[Saturnine Pariah]

Phenomenal quotes, I found them all memorable and insightful.

[sigurdV]

Do you have any empirical, objective, tangible evidence for your claims of Darwinism or Atheism being religions? If you do, please preset such data for our view. If not then you have wasted your time trying to discredict/insult Sir Spidergoat. Good day to you sir.

If you bother to read what I write you will find no claim of mine that atheism or darwinism are religions...i claim that any theory can be treated in a religious manner! Religion is not only a set of beliefs...its also a set of attitudes! And ppl switching from a religious belief system to some saner system tend to forget to change their attitudes so they go on preaching. trying to convert "enemies of the faith" into the flock. treating the new belief system as just another set of dogmas, being servile and obedient to their new priests and so on. Surely not your cup of tea huh?

[sigurdV]

spidergoat



But Atheism IS simply a lack of belief(lack of acceptance of)any god concept as being valid based on reason, and that IS all it is. Everything else is philosophy and Atheism is not a philosophy, it is a position in regard to acceptance(as truth)of proposed theist philosophies, period. Atheists often are Humanistic, scientifically informed and likely start out closer to truth(mainly because they don't have to "unlearn" supernatural garbage thinking), but that is not true of all Atheists, some of whom were just as nasty as the religious often are(IE religion or lack thereof has little to do with being good or bad actors in society).

Grumpy

Do You include Cantors definition of God in your claim? I bet you havent considered it? Am I correct?