Language allows alternate realty.

[wellwisher]

Language, which is an important part of being human, has many functions. On the one hand, language is used to transfer information about reality. We can use language to transfer the baseball scores. Language can also be used for transferring misinformation. In the political process, it would be hard to mudsling and spin without language. Try to make up a rumor without language.

If we look at a fictional novel, although the carefully crafted language will present a facsimile of reality, it is possible nothing in the novel will be real in terms of actuality. For example, it could be a sci-fi novel about a far away place in another galaxy, centuries in the future. Nevertheless, is will make use of relatable human and physical events, that may appear real. You can never create this alternate reality with only body language (charades). You need words to create alternate reality.

A novel could also be something like historical fiction, where language will be used to transfer some reality information, like dates, places and events. But this will be blended with fictional characters, who are relatable by doing dramatic human things, but which may not not real in the sense of verifiable occurrences. However, the overall novel can still have an emotional and intellectual impact, like it is real, due to language. It can stir real emotions, in reality, while being fictional.

Language can also be used in a more deliberate way to create misinformation. We can use language to lie, spin and pretend. If someone is sad, we can use language to tell them what they need to hear, so they feel better. It is may not be real, but it can still impact emotions, like the fictional novel.

The object of this topic is to discuses the entire range of language use and not shy away from alternate reality sides of language. We tend to use language to glorify language as holier that thou when in fact, it is more often used to distort reality. This could be advertising, TV programs, music, political spin, bragging, PC word policing enforcement and cooperation. It is what allows humans to alter perception of reality into things that are not natural, but which can appear to be real.

Animals have simple language and can convey only basic reality meaning. They lack the language development to convey alternate reality.

[Neverfly]

Animals have simple language and can convey only basic reality meaning. They lack the language development to convey alternate reality.

http://email.eva.mpg.de/~tomas/pdf/TICS30.pdf

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...I8aA2QWtmfTZCw

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/0...himps_ani.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...ns-morals.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/science/23angi.html

http://thislivelyearth.com/2010/01/1...-tell-stories/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/di...ge-of-the-sea/

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1998PhDT........50E

http://www.marinebioacoustics.com/fi...t_al_2002c.pdf

http://www.eoearth.org/article/Whale...d_culture#gen3

There's more than one way to spin a tall tale.

Be careful that you don't fall off that totem pole you're sitting atop of.

[Aqueous Id]

Neverfly: cool links.

The object of this topic is to discuses the entire range of language use and not shy away from alternate reality sides of language.

Huh?

Animals have simple language and can convey only basic reality meaning.

Such as?

They lack the language development to convey alternate reality.

Such as?

[DaveC426913]

Animals have simple language and can convey only basic reality meaning.

”
Such as?

Look out! There's danger!
Get away from my babies!

They lack the language development to convey alternate reality.

Such as?

The way I've heard it described is that humans are capable of metaphor.
The sky is a river. What would it be like to sail it?
This necklace embodies my dead mother.

Metaphor allows humans to conceive beyond that which exists.

[Aqueous Id]

Animals have simple language and can convey only basic reality meaning.
Such as?
Look out! There's danger!
Get away from my babies!

Here obviously we're ruling out all the taxa that can make noises. And then, among those who can, some will just strike, and some will do so silently.

At a minimum I think we can safely say that a lot of animals make noise in connection with defensive or aggressive behaviors. Next we might try to differentiate those noises from language. Or maybe we can try to establish what it is that constitutes language among animals.

For example primitive animals exploit chemical signaling. It communicates information but it would not normally be thought of as a language.

They lack the language development to convey alternate reality.
Such as?
The way I've heard it described is that humans are capable of metaphor.
The sky is a river. What would it be like to sail it?
This necklace embodies my dead mother.
Metaphor allows humans to conceive beyond that which exists.

So here you notice another distinction, speech, and some of the hierarchy above that such as metaphor.

I'm still not sure what "alternative reality" is. It seemed to be directed at persuasive speech, and the various elements of that, even up to the point of lying. I prefer the word "propaganda" in terms of what I think wellwisher is alluding to, but I'm still not sure what the topic here is.

Must be a language problem.

[Neverfly]

I recall a big hullabaloo over designating ASL (American Sign Language) as an actual and official language.

Humans...

Fact is, our concept of 'langauge' is based on um... our own concept of language.

Many animals, even the ones the run entirely off of programming use primitive basic "language:" They communicate. Sometimes, in a very complex manner.

Higher mammals have been shown to deceive, invent falsehoods and lead others (chimps, dolphins and whales) on a wild goose-chase just for fun, to protect food supply or to manipulate other desires...<cough>


Whales are believed (not certain yet) to tell very elaborate stories.
Whales have been observed in the wild and in repeated tests in captivity to play elaborate tricks on eachother, with dolphins and with human trainers.

I don't think this means that animals are smarter than we give them credit for...

I think it means we're not as smart as we give us credit for.

[Aqueous Id]

That would be a good thread topic. That and the rest of what you said. Those links are chock full o' curious and amazing material to inspire us.

Plus the birdbrains.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I recall a big hullabaloo over designating ASL (American Sign Language) as an actual and official language.

Contrary to popular belief, it is not a one-for-one transcription of English words into hand symbols. It has a much simpler grammar without all the inflections for tense and number, and it gets along fine without most of the "noise words" like articles and prepositions. In this regard it is much more streamlined, like Chinese.

It at least qualifies as a distinct dialect of American English (the Brits use a different system). From a technical linguistic viewpoint, it is indeed a separate language. The criterion for deciding whether two forms of communication are dialects of one language or two separate languages is: Can the members of one community understand the members of the other community, perhaps with just a little exposure and patience?

This raises a legitimate debate about, say, Dutch and Afrikaans, or Czech and Slovak, or even Finnish and Estonian.

But from where I sit, I see no way to categorize spoken English and ASL except as separate languages. It takes months, even years, of intensive training for a "speaker" of one to understand the "speech" of the other.

Whales are believed (not certain yet) to tell very elaborate stories.

I would replace the word "believed" with "suspected," or perhaps "fondly hoped." So far all we have been able to get out of dolphin sounds (the most intensively studied of the cetaceans) is:

• Each individual has a unique name.
• Each pod has a unique "song," or "chant," or "slogan." It could be something like a national anthem or a team cheer, or it could be more like a marching cadence: "I don't know but I been told/Orca ass is mighty cold/Sound off one-two/Sound off three-four..."

Or they could just be humming what they find to be a pretty melody.

I don't think this means that animals are smarter than we give them credit for.

Well some are. African Greys have learned to put three words together to answer a question, such as "square red key." Psittacines routinely learn how to unscrew nuts and bolts, so they can dismantle their cages from the inside. When we switched to left-hand threaded bolts, it only took our macaw two days to figure it out.

Some animals are "smart" in the area of empathy. Dogs with short muzzles, for instance, have their photoreceptors concentrated in the middle of their eyes. This makes them pretty bad at chasing prey, but pretty good at learning to read our facial expressions and body language. Notice that these are the breeds everyone thinks are so "sensitive" and "empathetic."

[Neverfly]

Contrary to popular belief, it is not a one-for-one transcription of English words into hand symbols.
But from where I sit, I see no way to categorize spoken English and ASL except as separate languages. It takes months, even years, of intensive training for a "speaker" of one to understand the "speech" of the other.

Yes, I studied it for about a year. Got an A.
Forgot it all...

I would replace the word "believed" with "suspected," or perhaps "fondly hoped." So far all we have been able to get out of dolphin sounds (the most intensively studied of the cetaceans) is:

• Each individual has a unique name.
• Each pod has a unique "song," or "chant," or "slogan." It could be something like a national anthem or a team cheer, or it could be more like a marching cadence: "I don't know but I been told/Orca ass is mighty cold/Sound off one-two/Sound off three-four..."

Or they could just be humming what they find to be a pretty melody.

Let me search up the link, but recent articles claim it's far more than that.

Apparently, the sonar creates an image in the "gel" in the Dolphins head. The brain interprets this image, much the same way our eyes do, or a pit vipers brain interprets I.R.
They used a computer equipped with sonar, placed a flowerpot (empty) in a pool and had the dolphin dive down. It was offered treats for finding objexts at the bottom of the pool.
When it saw the pot, it made some noise...
Which translated to a sonographic image of a flower pot on the screen.
Investigating other objects yielded the same result. Humans also showed up on the sonographic images including, what appears to be their word for "Bad"- A face that looks Japanese. They talk with sonographic pictures.

[Aqueous Id]

Well some are. African Greys have learned to put three words together to answer a question, such as "square red key."

I like the lore about the famous bird Alex, including such gems as:

In July 2005, Pepperberg reported that Alex understood the concept of zero.

Which is better than some of us, based at least on threads like "What is nothingness?" etc.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I like the lore about the famous bird Alex . . . .

That quote was indeed from Alex, the most famous African Grey of all. Unfortunately he died at the rather young age of 30. The cause has never been determined; a phenomenon with which Mrs. Fraggle and I are depressingly familiar. It's very difficult to get a decent autopsy on a bird.

His last words to his handler, Irene Pepperberg, who had lived with him for his entire life, were:

You be good. See you tomorrow. I love you.

[lalalandscape]

I fail to see how language is used more often to distort reality than to truly see it.
Are you really drawing upon all of the examples of language's implementation to arrive at this conclusion? At least you must be aware of what written language has provided for humans. Historical testaments, scientific discoveries; even now in our discussion information is being brought forth in language form. Computers utilize language (program languages), to convey information in human-readable languages. These are merely the examples which instantly came to my mind, for they are perhaps the most significant.
By the way, fiction is hardly an example of misinformation. Everybody knows that they aren't true (inherent in the definition of 'fiction'), therefore the information is being conveyed accurately, as false.

[Fraggle Rocker]

By the way, fiction is hardly an example of misinformation. Everybody knows that they aren't true (inherent in the definition of 'fiction'), therefore the information is being conveyed accurately, as false.

Much of the best fiction is metaphor. Lessons about life and the universe, streamlined and simplified to be easily understood. Our various holy books are perfect examples.

It only becomes misinformation for people who don't understand the concept of metaphor. So they assume that the fiction is literal truth. Again, holy books (in the hands of some people) are perfect examples.

[lalalandscape]

Much of the best fiction is metaphor. Lessons about life and the universe, streamlined and simplified to be easily understood. Our various holy books are perfect examples.

It only becomes misinformation for people who don't understand the concept of metaphor. So they assume that the fiction is literal truth. Again, holy books (in the hands of some people) are perfect examples.

I agree with this. I was going to add that fiction serves as a meaningful parallel with literal truths- but this concept seemed understood, and thus redundant, to OP (wellwisher).

[Fraggle Rocker]

I agree with this. I was going to add that fiction serves as a meaningful parallel with literal truths- but this concept seemed understood, and thus redundant, to OP (wellwisher).

Always write for a slightly larger audience than you expect, whether it's a manual, an article or a post on an internet forum. That way you won't leave newcomers in the dark. Besides, as one of my wisest mentors explained, "Never underestimate the value of telling a man something he already knows. That establishes you as truthful and trustworthy."

There's lots to be said about metaphor. Joseph Campbell (1904-1987, Carl Jung's popularizer who wrote many books of his own and had a long and popular series on PBS) spent considerable time on a fascinating discussion of metaphor. After all, metaphor lies halfway between truth and fiction.

In his travels he discovered people who could not understand the concept and in fact were hostile to it. The further he was from civilization's population centers, the more of them there were.

He was trying to explain metaphor to one rural villager, and figured he'd break through with an obvious one: "What would you say if I told you that the Moon is a silver chariot, passing across the night sky?"

The angry answer? "That's a lie!"